Feudal Japan Ideas

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

Would it have been possible for a conquistador (Possible relative to Cortez like the one who conquered the Inca, or even the same one possibly) to have traveled to Hokkaido, allied with the Ainu and possibly some others on the mainland and then established a client shogunate after looting the daiymo of their wealth?

The Kanto plain should be easy enough to take with superior technology and armor and if there are any veterans from the Inca conquests then warfare in the Japanese mountains would seem like a piece of cake compared to the Andes.

But I was always fond of the Idea of the Ainu or some other Siberian people establishing a new Dynasty in Japan like the Mongols did in China.

 

[FasterThanRaito]

Would it have been possible for a conquistador (Possible relative to Cortez like the one who conquered the Inca, or even the same one possibly) to have traveled to Hokkaido, allied with the Ainu and possibly some others on the mainland and then established a client shogunate after looting the daiymo of their wealth?

The Kanto plain should be easy enough to take with superior technology and armor and if there are any veterans from the Inca conquests then warfare in the Japanese mountains would seem like a piece of cake compared to the Andes.

But I was always fond of the Idea of the Ainu or some other Siberian people establishing a new Dynasty in Japan like the Mongols did in China.

You can't pull a Guns Germs and Steel on a place that insn't crippled by germs and has more guns and steel than any possible army of conquistadors.

Even if Japan was somehow conquerable before the era of industrial total war, there isn't a whole lot to loot, like Mexican gold. What are you going to do, cart off the rice?

If Japan is going to have changes to its relationship with the outside world, those changes are coming from inside, not outside.

 

[oshron]

though Japanese "conquistadors" is a pretty cool idea in and of itself

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

You can't pull a Guns Germs and Steel on a place that insn't crippled by germs and has more guns and steel than any possible army of conquistadors.

Even if Japan was somehow conquerable before the era of industrial total war, there isn't a whole lot to loot, like Mexican gold. What are you going to do, cart off the rice?

If Japan is going to have changes to its relationship with the outside world, those changes are coming from inside, not outside.

Japan actually has lots of resources that would be valuable to the outside world, in Hokkaido there were a couple 'Gold Rushes"; but to the real thing of value is slaves.

There were many Japanese slaves in Europe for a short time, not so much for labor but for serving and most popularly being used for pleasure.

But I didn't say full on conquer and annex, I'm talking about initiating a puppet government or a Client state(s) to give the Spanish crown a monopoly on Japanese goods coming into Europe and European goods coming into Japan, such a monopoly would be a gold mine in and of itself as the Japanese desperately wanted European goods and Europeans desperately wanted Japanese goods.

EDIT: And if it's done before Japan is unified then it wouldn't really be too much of a challenge as the Spanish could slowly take it all over the course of a few decades

 

[oshron]

Japan actually has lots of resources that would be valuable to the outside world, in Hokkaido there were a couple 'Gold Rushes"; but to the real thing of value is slaves.

There were many Japanese slaves in Europe for a short time, not so much for labor but for serving and most popularly being used for pleasure.

interesting. what era was this? i'd like to learn more

 

[Timaeus]

You can't pull a Guns Germs and Steel on a place that insn't crippled by germs and has more guns and steel than any possible army of conquistadors.

Even if Japan was somehow conquerable before the era of industrial total war, there isn't a whole lot to loot, like Mexican gold. What are you going to do, cart off the rice?

If Japan is going to have changes to its relationship with the outside world, those changes are coming from inside, not outside.

Links with China through ports are always valuable. And a 'civilized' Spanish client state with some sympathies to Christianity would do wonders for the conversion strategies of the Iberians in the Far East.

interesting. what era was this? i'd like to learn more

16th century. The Portuguese took some Japanese slaves during the especially chaotic times of the 16th century, which among other things and with other reasons led to Hideyoshi banning Christianity and the martyrdom of a bunch of Catholics who weren't affiliated with the Portuguese.

 

[Tredecimus]

Would it have been possible for a conquistador (Possible relative to Cortez like the one who conquered the Inca, or even the same one possibly) to have traveled to Hokkaido, allied with the Ainu and possibly some others on the mainland and then established a client shogunate after looting the daiymo of their wealth?

The Kanto plain should be easy enough to take with superior technology and armor and if there are any veterans from the Inca conquests then warfare in the Japanese mountains would seem like a piece of cake compared to the Andes.

Unless Spain committs an entire field army, there's no chance for them to subdue a country which had more guns than the rest of Europe combined.

 

[Timaeus]

Unless Spain committs an entire field army, there's no chance for them to subdue a country which had more guns than the rest of Europe combined.

There's no need for subduing, especially when they already have a sizable colony in the region. All they'd want is an additional port to China.

What could happen is a Catholic Japan (which is possible considering the daimyos who converted) becoming a sort of ally, sort of client state of Spain which promptly swallows the Philippines in the shattering of the 19th century (this is the only reasonable way Japan can get an empire before the Meiji era, contrary to the usual cliches).

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

There's no need for subduing, especially when they already have a sizable colony in the region. All they'd want is an additional port to China.

What could happen is a Catholic Japan (which is possible considering the daimyos who converted) becoming a sort of ally, sort of client state of Spain which promptly swallows the Philippines in the shattering of the 19th century (this is the only reasonable way Japan can get an empire before the Meiji era, contrary to the usual cliches).

This, it could possibly roll along with a European supported Shimabara rebellion or if the Kirishitan who was escorted to the Philippines after the banning of Christianity had supported an army to Invade Japan instead of saying it was a very bad idea.

 

[oshron]

i came up with what i think could be a good "POD" for my Feudal Japanese story (it's fantasy, and there's technically an earlier POD on the other side of Eurasia, but this is the relevant POV for getting Japan towards the 14th century Meiji idea i mentioned before). two words: Marco Polo.

basically, it occurred to me that Polo going to Japan after his second visit to Beijing (as part of his return trip to Venice) could be a significant POD, maybe with Italians setting up an equivalent to Dejima as the Dutch merchants 350 years early. i don't think this POD is significant enough to butterfly the Mongol Armada, which itself is supposed to be a key trigger to the earlier revolution that ends the shogunate and leads to that office's replacement with the Daijō-daijin* (though i still need to work out exactly how the revolution takes place)

anyway, does anyone have any ideas for exactly what the consequences of Marco Polo visiting Japan could be? assume that he enters and leaves without incident and returns home safely, just a few weeks or months later than IOTL


* "chancellor of the realm"; i'd looked into this one a while back and this was a historical title used during the Heian period and briefly under the Meiji Constitution, but the real reason i decided on this one is as a revision of how i had it written originally, where the father of the main character--as a princess--was a fictional Emperor of Japan, but i've decided against this since apparently it's generally taboo in Japanese culture to use even fictional Emperors, and using a different office gives me alot more freedom

 

[Tyr]

Someday I'll finish my Takeda victory tl.

 

[Timaeus]

This, it could possibly roll along with a European supported Shimabara rebellion or if the Kirishitan who was escorted to the Philippines after the banning of Christianity had supported an army to Invade Japan instead of saying it was a very bad idea.

That would be Dom Justo Takayama/Takayama Ukon, though I think a PoD then would be a bit late. We need a bigger support base for Christianity beyond Nagasaki to thrive. And we need a Japanese Constantine to legitimize it. I think Oda Nobunaga would be the best possibility for such a figure.

 

[Faeelin]

That would be Dom Justo Takayama/Takayama Ukon, though I think a PoD then would be a bit late. We need a bigger support base for Christianity beyond Nagasaki to thrive. And we need a Japanese Constantine to legitimize it. I think Oda Nobunaga would be the best possibility for such a figure.

Why would he convert?

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

That would be Dom Justo Takayama/Takayama Ukon, though I think a PoD then would be a bit late. We need a bigger support base for Christianity beyond Nagasaki to thrive. And we need a Japanese Constantine to legitimize it. I think Oda Nobunaga would be the best possibility for such a figure.

Actually I was thinking more in line with a European supported independent christian Kyushu that could possibly over the centuries with European Support and Christian zeal conquer a chunk of Honshu or whatnot. And remember that if the Shimabara rebellion went better then 30,000 Christians would be alive and I'd say that's enough to expand their faith pretty well.

Man I gotta research more of Japanese History because I need to make a TL on this.

But why would Nobunaga Convert? Most likely that would only shoot himself in the foot but I guess if you had him make a deal with Spain that if they gave him support they would have dibs on trade.

 

[Timaeus]

]But why would Nobunaga Convert? Most likely that would only shoot himself in the foot but I guess if you had him make a deal with Spain that if they gave him support they would have dibs on trade.

I never said Nobunaga would convert, I said he would be the best bet for legitimizing Christianity a la Edict of Milan, which would help Christianity not die out due to suppression.

 

[Tredecimus]

There's no chance that Nobunaga will convert to any religion. He's virtually a proto-atheist, IMO.

 

[M79]

Date Masamune would work as a potential Shogun. Have the Motion side with Mitsunari and have Toyotomi Hideyori or Kunimatsu go on to become Catholic. Forego the ban on foreign education and it gets really interedting. Maybe a disgraced clan revives their fortune and power via international trade? Perhaps by finding "Fusang" or colonizing some area of Pacific territory? New Zealand? Oregon? California? Hawaii?

 

[Timaeus]

There's no chance that Nobunaga will convert to any religion. He's virtually a proto-atheist, IMO.

Again, I never said conversion. Nobunaga would tolerate Christianity because it allows him and his shogunate to keep the ports open and bring in the guns and western science. In short, Christianity has advantages which he'd want to exploit, like Constantine with the Edict of Milan. A foot in the door, so to speak.

 

[Faeelin]

Again, I never said conversion. Nobunaga would tolerate Christianity because it allows him and his shogunate to keep the ports open and bring in the guns and western science. In short, Christianity has advantages which he'd want to exploit, like Constantine with the Edict of Milan. A foot in the door, so to speak.

But Japan had these advantages OTL, and the Dutch didn't care about religion. Meanwhile, the Spanish actively did use religion to further their own ends.

 

[Remitonov]

But Japan had these advantages OTL, and the Dutch didn't care about religion. Meanwhile, the Spanish actively did use religion to further their own ends.

Well, Nobunaga was willing to let Christianity flood in if it meant weakening the monasteries' hold on the population. He'll probably turn on the Jesuits in the event he unifies the country, though, or at least removes the monks from his list of threats.