Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

[Athelstane]

Presumably because if relations with the UK and the US doesn't deteriorate

An important point.

Japan joined the Dreadnought Race principally because of fear of the United States and its rapidly growing naval force.

Then, the U.S. insistence on Britain dissolving the Anglo-Japanese Alliance at the WNC stripped away a pillar of moral security for the Japanese.

 

[Stendhal]

Hamburg and Bremen are champions of the small states, of freedom and minority rights, inseparable brothers in arms the moment Prussia encroaches on the slightest issue, but leave them alone and you will see them devolve into the most comfortable enmity.

Is it safe to drink their water or shall I still die from Cholera ?

 

[haider najib]

question what is the relationship between memel or east prussia and Lithuania, as Lithuania doesn't have much coastline. Is memel now their main port? Like wise are german Lithuanians now rich due to acting as middle men between germans and actual lithuanians.

Second Poland has no ports so which germans ports do they rely on for imported stuff? does poland get any special treatment as like no taxed from certain ports etc.

 

[Athelstane]

question what is the relationship between memel or east prussia and Lithuania, as Lithuania doesn't have much coastline. Is memel now their main port? Like wise are german Lithuanians now rich due to acting as middle men between germans and actual lithuanians.

Seems like they'd have to use either Riga or Memel (or other German ports) for shipping most goods or people to and from abroad. Because otherwise, all they would have is Palanga, unless Latvia manages to keep it (that was a close call in OTL). And Palanga is not much of a port.

 

[carlton_bach]

Is it safe to drink their water or shall I still die from Cholera ?

By the 1920s, it will be quite safe. Big infrastructure investments become a thing in Germany, and continue to be. Even in famously stingy places like Hamburg.

question what is the relationship between memel or east prussia and Lithuania, as Lithuania doesn't have much coastline. Is memel now their main port? Like wise are german Lithuanians now rich due to acting as middle men between germans and actual lithuanians.

Second Poland has no ports so which germans ports do they rely on for imported stuff? does poland get any special treatment as like no taxed from certain ports etc.

Seems like they'd have to use either Riga or Memel (or other German ports) for shipping most goods or people to and from abroad. Because otherwise, all they would have is Palanga, unless Latvia manages to keep it (that was a close call in OTL). And Palanga is not much of a port.

Neither Lithuania nor Poland will have good ports. I think Poland will primarily depend on German ports to their north (Danzig, Stettin, Rostock, Königsberg) with good rail connections while the Lithuanians can go through Memel, but extant rail and river connections will prioritise Riga. This is less of a problem than it could be because the Germans have an interest in their ahem allies earning specie to repay the war loans and because of the role that the "Zollverein" plays in their own national mythology. Free trade is good, as far as Berlin is concerned. And the docking fees and railway freight charges make up amply for what is lost in customs duty not collected. (IOTL Hamburg pioneered extensive freeport arrangements, ITTL this extends to all German ports very quickly, making it possible to transit a consignment from the border crossing to a vessel in port through bonded warehouses without ever crossing German customs borders.)

 

[Athelstane]

I think Poland will primarily depend on German ports to their north (Danzig, Stettin, Rostock, Königsberg) with good rail connections while the Lithuanians can go through Memel, but extant rail and river connections will prioritise Riga. This is less of a problem than it could be because the Germans have an interest in their ahem allies earning specie to repay the war loans and because of the role that the "Zollverein" plays in their own national mythology. Free trade is good, as far as Berlin is concerned. And the docking fees and railway freight charges make up amply for what is lost in customs duty not collected.

Thanks. This makes sense.

As you say, this kind of arrangement makes sense for Germany, too.

 

[haider najib]

can i ask some questions. it was mentioned briefly that some german states still like to act with semi independent with with their own embassies. If so which german states have embassies and with which countries do they have them? Are they big or small embassies. Following on do people actually like this or see this as waste of state money. Or take pride in their embassies.

Second how does germany coast line, general sea focus develop? Do the coastal cities change due to this tl bigger or smaller? Like wise there no german brit naval arms race yet german navy got kinda humiliated by the russians. Its also the force german nationalists and libs like as its a national force none of the old prussian stuff involved. Like actual germany is not a naval power has it changed here?

Okay now i have to ask where does airforce fit in german society? are they like the army old order prussian dominated, classism, or the navy lib supported pan german etc?

In regards to the dutch, how have their ports developed with a stronger germany have dutch ports flourished? Like are the dutch benefitting with close ties to germany and a more powerful germany?

 

[Stendhal]

By the 1920s, it will be quite safe. Big infrastructure investments become a thing in Germany, and continue to be. Even in famously stingy places like Hamburg.

As one cannot escape history, one must keep going.

 

[carlton_bach]

can i ask some questions. it was mentioned briefly that some german states still like to act with semi independent with with their own embassies. If so which german states have embassies and with which countries do they have them? Are they big or small embassies. Following on do people actually like this or see this as waste of state money. Or take pride in their embassies.

By mid-century, the only German states still maintaining actual embassies outside of Prussia are Bavaria, Saxony, Baden, and Wurttemberg. Baden and Wurttemberg do so for purely traditional reasons. Saxony and Bavaria do it as a way of preserving the dignity of the royal house. A duke or prince might just about communicate with a foreign royal house through another's emissary, but a king will not. That means they have embassies in most major European capitals and more specifically, with all kings (including Warsaw). All of these are small establishments without much staff, though occasionally they are home to IIIb cells.
On the other hand, Hamburg, Lübeck and Bremen, while not going to the trouble and expense of embassies, maintain a network of consulates in many far-flung corners of the world. These are deesigned as poutposts to gather intelligence and facilitate commerce. The governments happily piggyback on other country's networks and by now there is a system of mutual interoperability that means any given town needs only the consulate of one German state to do business for all of them. But Hamburg is that state in a disconcerting number of places, from Valparaiso to Kingston to Incheon.

Second how does germany coast line, general sea focus develop? Do the coastal cities change due to this tl bigger or smaller? Like wise there no german brit naval arms race yet german navy got kinda humiliated by the russians. Its also the force german nationalists and libs like as its a national force none of the old prussian stuff involved. Like actual germany is not a naval power has it changed here?

The navy does not see the war as a humiliation. It made the reputation of the German fleet and turned its admirals into stars. People will mention Ingenohl in a breath with Nelson, de Ruyter, and Drake. The problem is rather, institutionally, that the war brought home to the defense establishment how little the fleet could actually do once it had command of the seas. As as result, the interwar German government tried to be parsimonious, maintaining just enough fighting power to contain any attempt on its home seas. The idea continued to be that Germany could always retake Togo and Kamerun in Picardy, but it must have firm control of the Baltic and German Bight.

Okay now i have to ask where does airforce fit in german society? are they like the army old order prussian dominated, classism, or the navy lib supported pan german etc?

There is more than one army, and things differ a lot. But the air force effectively is the navy writ large, a thorozughly national institution with the kind of technological mindset that opens careers even to the kind of talented outsiders that would be shunted into dead-end warrant roles in the navy. It is also a young force, with officers often retiring early for civilian jobs, opening slots for younger men. This is not viewed with disapproval. Of course the old class of officers do not regard the air force as a proper arm at all, but these people barely acknowledged artillerymen as real soldiers before the war, too.

In regards to the dutch, how have their ports developed with a stronger germany have dutch ports flourished? Like are the dutch benefitting with close ties to germany and a more powerful germany?

The Dutch ports lie at the end of the waterway that connects Alsace-Lorraine, the industrial centres of Wurttemberg and the Prussian Rhine and Ruhr provinces with the ocean. With very limited protectionist measures and a history of close cooperation, Rotterdam effectively becomes the port of Southwestern Germany the same way Hamburg becomes that of central Germany and Bohemia.

 

[Athelstane]

As as result, the interwar German government tried to be parsimonious, maintaining just enough fighting power to contain any attempt on its home seas.

This is by far the the most prudent strategic naval principle for a modern German state, no matter how hegemonic it manages to get to be in Europe. In this timeline, they seem to have stumbled into it. But obviously, this is a major part of why this this timeline is a Germanwank, isn't it?

Ingenohl is not a Nelson or a de Ruyter, of course. But he is at least a Tegetthoff. And for Germany, that's enough.

 

[Vingilótë]

The Dutch ports lie at the end of the waterway that connects Alsace-Lorraine, the industrial centres of Wurttemberg and the Prussian Rhine and Ruhr provinces with the ocean. With very limited protectionist measures and a history of close cooperation, Rotterdam effectively becomes the port of Southwestern Germany the same way Hamburg becomes that of central Germany and Bohemia.

Of course the dominance of riverine shipping was de rigeur for the pre-industrial era, but I'm always a little (too?) surprised to learn how riverine transit and shipping manages to stick around even in a world of railroads, long haul trucking, and airplanes

 

[haider najib]

Can I ask during the peace conference why didn't sweden ask for a but of northern Finland so they could get a artic port.

 

[carlton_bach]

Of course the dominance of riverine shipping was de rigeur for the pre-industrial era, but I'm always a little (too?) surprised to learn how riverine transit and shipping manages to stick around even in a world of railroads, long haul trucking, and airplanes

It is still the cheapest way to carry bulk, and then there is path dependency. A big port is where you build roads and railways to and from, unless there is a political incentive (or strong geographic reason) not to. It's interesting how even today, a lot of the cargo from Southwestern Germany goes through Rotterdam and a good bit of Czech and East German freight goes through Hamburg. It would not need to.

Can I ask during the peace conference why didn't sweden ask for a but of northern Finland so they could get a artic port.

They were latecomers. Finland was already being treated as a co-belligerent rather than conquered territory by the time they joined. Giving away the national territory of what they referred to as an ally would have endangered Germany's entire policy.
Of course they did confidently expect they could turn Finland into a satellite, so it was not a high priority either.

 

[haider najib]

in the baltics how common is that german spoken by the population? Second how are languages doing biden biden nations? Have baltic languages declined in favour of german like scottish and welsh decline to english. How has the Western Ukrainian state language doing? Like how have these nations done in reforming their nations have they tried to break from Cyrillic to change to latin etc. Any curious stuff?

 

[carlton_bach]

in the baltics how common is that german spoken by the population? Second how are languages doing biden biden nations? Have baltic languages declined in favour of german like scottish and welsh decline to english. How has the Western Ukrainian state language doing? Like how have these nations done in reforming their nations have they tried to break from Cyrillic to change to latin etc. Any curious stuff?

Nothing too curious that I would foresee. The policies of the Baden Baden nations are all focused on the idea of ethnic nationhood, so the newly standardised versions of their various national languages are getting an enormous boost. This, by the way, is a major irritant now, but will become an asset in producing and maintaining cooperation and good neighbourliness in the future. The various national minorities are united by a standard language across borders and thus integrated into international networks by default. The lanmguages that do not have any standardising authority behind them, though, mostly wither and die. Kashubian, Karelian, Livonian and their like arte going to become living linguistic fossils or go entirely extinct (Helsingfors/Helsinki University put some major resources into recording the minor languages of the Baltic, so their linguistics library is the go-to place for corpus study).
Belorussian is doing - badly. The Russians consider it a dialect of Russian and try to teach its speakers how to talk properly. The Polish and Lithuanian authorities agree and try to denationalise its speakers. It survives only in very rural areas, and there is mostly destroyed as the war creates widespread dislocation.
Ukrainian is contested. The Austro-Hungarians (and the German authorities) consider it a dialect of Ruthenian which is not wrong. The Wolhynian state considers it its own national language. Standardisation is slow going. Since so much of the work depends on material produced in Galicia before the war, most intellectuals use the Latin alphabet and the organs of state are trying to do the same thing, but there is a good deal of resistance from people who are usaed to Cyrillic and resent being told what to do.
The Baltic languages are doing fine. German policy is explicitly one of ethnic nationalisation, they don't want these people to become Germans. Nonetheless, bilingualism or trilingualism is quickly becoming the standard around the region, with almost everybody learning a prestige language along with their native one. The hierarchy is roughly:

German (and English and French)
Swedish, Polish
Finnish, Lithuanian, Yiddish
Latvian, Estonian, Ruthenian/Ukrainian
Belorussian, various nonstandardised minority languages
Russian

Exact pathways depend on where you are (in Helsinki, you learn Swedish to join polite society, in Riga, more likely German, in Briansk Polish, everywhere you study German to move up in the world), but the general pattern is always upward. No Polish or Lithuanian Speaker will bother to study Belorussian. The only exception is the official national language which everyone learns at school. Even Baltendeutsche learn Latvian or Estonian to some extent, though they confidently expect everyone who is anyone to speak fluent German.

 

[avernite]

It is still the cheapest way to carry bulk, and then there is path dependency. A big port is where you build roads and railways to and from, unless there is a political incentive (or strong geographic reason) not to. It's interesting how even today, a lot of the cargo from Southwestern Germany goes through Rotterdam and a good bit of Czech and East German freight goes through Hamburg. It would not need to.

300 million tons ship on the Rhine each year, of which 200 million in Germany (the rest travels somewhere between Rotterdam and the German border, or uses the IJssel for Dutch-only travel)

Just 45 million tons of goods go over the entire Dutch railway network per year.
And 700 million over the entire road network.

So I am not sure 'it would not need to' applies, you'd have to expand by 4 times the current rail capacity, or 1,5 times road capacity, if it were all devoted to shipping goods along the Rhine route (and of course most isn't, trucks are used to ship all the Rhenish goods to other places).

When it comes to tonnage, nothing beats a good ship.

 

[Jürgen]

Nothing too curious that I would foresee. The policies of the Baden Baden nations are all focused on the idea of ethnic nationhood, so the newly standardised versions of their various national languages are getting an enormous boost. This, by the way, is a major irritant now, but will become an asset in producing and maintaining cooperation and good neighbourliness in the future. The various national minorities are united by a standard language across borders and thus integrated into international networks by default. The lanmguages that do not have any standardising authority behind them, though, mostly wither and die. Kashubian, Karelian, Livonian and their like arte going to become living linguistic fossils or go entirely extinct (Helsingfors/Helsinki University put some major resources into recording the minor languages of the Baltic, so their linguistics library is the go-to place for corpus study).
Belorussian is doing - badly. The Russians consider it a dialect of Russian and try to teach its speakers how to talk properly. The Polish and Lithuanian authorities agree and try to denationalise its speakers. It survives only in very rural areas, and there is mostly destroyed as the war creates widespread dislocation.
Ukrainian is contested. The Austro-Hungarians (and the German authorities) consider it a dialect of Ruthenian which is not wrong. The Wolhynian state considers it its own national language. Standardisation is slow going. Since so much of the work depends on material produced in Galicia before the war, most intellectuals use the Latin alphabet and the organs of state are trying to do the same thing, but there is a good deal of resistance from people who are usaed to Cyrillic and resent being told what to do.
The Baltic languages are doing fine. German policy is explicitly one of ethnic nationalisation, they don't want these people to become Germans. Nonetheless, bilingualism or trilingualism is quickly becoming the standard around the region, with almost everybody learning a prestige language along with their native one. The hierarchy is roughly:

German (and English and French)
Swedish, Polish
Finnish, Lithuanian, Yiddish
Latvian, Estonian, Ruthenian/Ukrainian
Belorussian, various nonstandardised minority languages
Russian

Exact pathways depend on where you are (in Helsinki, you learn Swedish to join polite society, in Riga, more likely German, in Briansk Polish, everywhere you study German to move up in the world), but the general pattern is always upward. No Polish or Lithuanian Speaker will bother to study Belorussian. The only exception is the official national language which everyone learns at school. Even Baltendeutsche learn Latvian or Estonian to some extent, though they confidently expect everyone who is anyone to speak fluent German.

A interesting fact, I read (or heard in the radio) about Ukrainian is that the dialect spoken in former Galicia, you see both more German loanword and German style closed compounds (just using the East Slavic words instead German one for it, so a hospital becomes a ”sickhouse” like in German and any other non-English Germanic language), while other western Ukrainian dialects and Belarus tend to use Polish loanword (this may be a result of Polish rule from 1920-1939 and not a inheritance from the Commonwealth). while central and east Ukrainian dialects tend to use the same words as rural Russian dialects, and standard Russian tend to use Old Slavonic loanwords. It’s major reason for why the Russian looks down on Ukrainians as simply Russian rednecks, because their language sounds to them like something spoken by a semi-illiterate peasants, and also at the same time see Western Ukrainian as distinct non-Russian nations, because they sounds truly foreign.

 

[1962strat]

Some questions and thoughts about eastern Europe ITTL.

How would the modern ITTL eastern european states in Germany's orbit rate in terms of development against their OTL counterparts? What would be the effects of a century of German hegemony when compared to the OTL sequence of brief interwar independece, WW2, communist rule and then the EU?

And about the manner of German rule, I'd imagine that for the first couple decades after the war the contrast between Russian heavy-handed rule against German more subtle neocolonialism would be enough to keep the population mostly in check, but i cannot see that lasting forever. How do the Germans deal with the inevitable discontent that would arise in such conditions? Did they loosen their control and hope that preexisting economic ties would still afford them a measure of influence?

What's the situation when it comes to this in modern times? How much control do the Germans have over eastern Europe, and are there any anti -german movements in said region?

 

[htgriffin]

The hierarchy is roughly:

German (and English and French)
Swedish, Polish
Finnish, Lithuanian, Yiddish
Latvian, Estonian, Ruthenian/Ukrainian
Belorussian, various nonstandardised minority languages
Russian

One does wonder how many regard Yiddish speakers as "cheating" when they learn German. I mean once one gets the script down....

OTOH, the Eastern Slavic languages are not that divergent either.....

 

[haider najib]

interesting with belarussian language going extinct along with campaigns by three nations to de-nationalise them that means there is a significant orthodox polish and Lithuanian population no?

It was mentioned along time ago that you haven't decided on if poland would get land or a puppet state. That puppet state would russian now wouldn't duchy of smolensk (its only notable russian place i know between poland and russia). Would it not be more prudent for poland to just take the land a russian puppet made out of intergralist supporting russians doesn't seem good. Can i ask then realistically what can poland take realistically take and keep. Btw does anyone know where the actual polish border would be on a map on belarus i understand we don't have clear map but if you had to draw a line cutting belarus between poland and russia where would the line cut through? If Poland decides to push to smolensk and take it (again only russian city i know between moscow and poland) Is it safe to safe poland will expel the russian population? How will poland settle their new lands to make it polish, invite poles from america? encourage western poles to move? encourage nationalists to move to the east to revive some ancient commonwealth glory etc.