Different Possible Successors to Suleiman the Magnificent

[MarshalBraginsky]

During my unintentional one month fishing trip that was only meant for two days, I've been watching this show called Muthesem Yuzyil and it's a retelling of Suleiman the Magnificent's life. Now I've become intrigued by how the possible start of the Ottoman Empire's decline started with that of Selim II and his son Murad III.

Now suppose if Suleiman the Magnificent was succeeded by someone other than Selim II. Here are the possible successors:

Sehzade Mustafa: The problem with this guy is that he's the offspring of Suleiman and Mahidevran Sultan and of course, Hurrem being Boss Hurrem the manipulative puppet master would ultimately triumph with manipulating Suleiman into executing Mustafa. Kinda sad, since Mahidevran Sultan could have been a powerful Valide Sultan. Had this guy lived to become sultan, either him or Sehzade Bayezid would win the title "Nice Job Breaking it Hero" for TV Tropes. (Actually, Selim II IOTL should be the Ottoman poster boy for "Nice Job Breaking it Hero" since within the five years of his reign, the Ottoman Empire went on a downhill decline, but slightly down)

Sehzade Mehmet: Not is known about this guy, other than the fact that he died right after Mustafa did. Speculations would arose as to how he died, but then again, Ottoman princes have a short lifespan if they are not lucky.

Sehzade Bayezid: Now this guy could have succeeded Suleiman if he actually won his war against Selim, but how would his reign turn out? Would Bayezid be an even worse choice than Selim?

Sehzade Cihangir: Now it was this guy who died from grief, and not Sehzade Mehmet, after Mustafa was executed. If he lived, his title should be "Cihangir the Lucky".

Who among these guys would be a good successor to Suleiman besides Selim II?

 

[JonasResende]

According to Mustafa's wiki, he had two sons and two daughters. Were they killed alongside him or not? And would there be a regency when Suleiman died? Or would his then eldest son succeed in place of a grandson?

 

[SunDeep]

Who were his two daughters married to? Because that might be an interesting angle to look at.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

That is a good question about Mustafa, and I'm wondering as to why they were not killed though. I can say for certain that Selim II actually helped Mahidevran Sultan with her financial situation when he became Sultan.

 

[JonasResende]

Who were his two daughters married to? Because that might be an interesting angle to look at.

A reigning Sultana might be interesting. Although, Roxelana and Kosem Sultan basically ruled the empire. Maybe she can be married to one of Roxelana's grandsons. Though I don't know what Islamic law says about marrying cousins.

 

[alexcoppo]

If you can dispose of Hurrem in time, you save both Pargali Ibrahim Pasha (widely regarded as one of the best Vizirs) and Sehzade Mustafa (regarded by the contemporaries as a great prince). At least for a generation, the Ottoman Empire is much better off than IOTL.

In my opinion, the first snowflake of the avalanche that eventually destroyed the Ottoman Empire was a redhead .

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

If you can dispose of Hurrem in time, you save both Pargali Ibrahim Pasha (widely regarded as one of the best Vizirs) and Sehzade Mustafa (regarded by the contemporaries as a great prince). At least for a generation, the Ottoman Empire is much better off than IOTL.

In my opinion, the first snowflake of the avalanche that eventually destroyed the Ottoman Empire was a redhead .

A much better way of doing this is to prevent the kidnapping of Roxelana from ever taking place though. No Hurrem, no Selim and other sons. Mahidevran Sultan becomes the Valide Sultan. And why is Pargali Ibrahim Pasha the best Vizier? There was also Sokollu Mehmet Pasha who was as capable as Pargali.

And even in history, redheads don't get any love at all.

 

[LacheyS]

No deep knowledge of this era, but appears to be that, while it would be nice if Suleiman had kept his promise to Pargali, his whole demise reads to me as a case of digging his own grave.

Mustafa as Sultan holds a lot more promise, but I think that requires an early death for Suleiman (unless you keep Roxelana out of the picture entirely).

Maybe add some random virus with his emotional depression following the death of Mehmet in 1543 and take out the Sultan. Mustafa could rule for the next 40-50 years.

 

[Scorpius72]

If someone aside from Selim the Sot had succeeded his father the decline of the Ottoman empire might've been delayed for a little bit longer.

Though I don't know what Islamic law says about marrying cousins.

I don't know too much about the subject but I do believe it's covered in the sharia under what's called the "Incest laws" governing who a man may and may not legally have sexual relations with and under these laws it's permissable for first-cousins to marry (Which is something IIRC was traditionally encouraged to keep inheritances within the extended family).

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

No deep knowledge of this era, but appears to be that, while it would be nice if Suleiman had kept his promise to Pargali, his whole demise reads to me as a case of digging his own grave.

Mustafa as Sultan holds a lot more promise, but I think that requires an early death for Suleiman (unless you keep Roxelana out of the picture entirely).

Maybe add some random virus with his emotional depression following the death of Mehmet in 1543 and take out the Sultan. Mustafa could rule for the next 40-50 years.

Or Suleiman getting killed during one of his campaigns might do the trick. Keeping Hurrem out is also easy though, but Mahidevran Sultan needs to be at the top if Mustafa would become Sultan.

 

[Hamurabi]

Prince Mustafa strikes me a Ned Stark figure, too honour bound and
out of his depth in the bloody games of intrigue.
He was popular with the people and both the Jannisarry and the Navy which means he could have made a coup d'etat on his dad anytime he wanted.

another thing is Mustafa was dead set on Invading Southern Italy and Malta, he would try again and again instead of wasting time and resources in Iran.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Prince Mustafa strikes me a Ned Stark figure, too honour bound and
out of his depth in the bloody games of intrigue.
He was popular with the people and both the Jannisarry and the Navy which means he could have made a coup d'etat on his dad anytime he wanted.

another thing is Mustafa was dead set on Invading Southern Italy and Malta, he would try again and again instead of wasting time and resources in Iran.

Why did the Ottomans wanted to conquer Iran even if it was kinda impossible?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Prince Mustafa strikes me a Ned Stark figure, too honour bound and
out of his depth in the bloody games of intrigue.
He was popular with the people and both the Jannisarry and the Navy which means he could have made a coup d'etat on his dad anytime he wanted.

another thing is Mustafa was dead set on Invading Southern Italy and Malta, he would try again and again instead of wasting time and resources in Iran.

Maybe a TL about Mustafa having a coup, or at least Suleiman dying early (maybe in Iran) and Mustafa climbing onto the throne rather than Selim could be made?

 

[Hamurabi]

Why did the Ottomans wanted to conquer Iran even if it was kinda impossible?

The Safavids' main source of strenght was the qizilbashi, the turkish tribes who lived in eastern anatolia and azerbaijan.
The Shiite vs Sunni issue is also there, and Iran was under the process of massive Shiite indoctrination by the Safavids, at this time Perisa was more sunni than Syria .
Capturing Persia bring you manpower to be used in Europe, and defeats shiism this is why the ottomans were always fighting iran.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I can easily tell though, that Sehzade Mustafa won't be stupid enough to piss off the Janissaries that might have a chance to overthrow him.

 

[Space Oddity]

During my unintentional one month fishing trip that was only meant for two days, I've been watching this show called Muthesem Yuzyil and it's a retelling of Suleiman the Magnificent's life. Now I've become intrigued by how the possible start of the Ottoman Empire's decline started with that of Selim II and his son Murad III.

*sighs*

Look, popular accounts aside, Suleiman had essentially taken a conquest empire pretty much to its limits--all that was left was a few territories in the hinterlands and endless disputes on the Hungarian and Persian borders. When a conquest dynasty is no longer capable of serious conquests, problems start--which they already were doing towards the end of Suleiman's reign. Selim II and his mother are often the victims of a desire to neaten up history, by providing it with easy villains, so that we can leave Suleimain perfect and unsullied. (I will grant you this--Murad III was a pretty bad Sultan, who ruined the bureaucracy and bankrupted the empire with war against Persia. But even he's not a solitary cause for the Ottomans' decline, just a bad ruler making a troubled situation worse.) Which isn't to say the pair couldn't be scheming bastards, but in the Empire EVERYONE who got anywhere was a scheming bastard. They had to be.

The fact is the Ottomans were looking at trouble, no matter who took the throne. And since the popular imagination thinks that an empire that was reaching its limits needs a guy who will start another round of dramatic huge conquests, its idea of a solution is... rather misguided.

What the Ottoman Empire needed was a bureaucratically-minded Sultan who was willing to put the major conquests on the shelf for now, and work on making the Empire work as a coherent entity. Not a man who'd scream "let's besiege Vienna again!"

Sehzade Mustafa: The problem with this guy is that he's the offspring of Suleiman and Mahidevran Sultan and of course, Hurrem Sultan would ultimately triumph with manipulating Suleiman into executing Mustafa.

Mustafa has other problems that likely lead to his death. Prior to his execution, he was the de facto heir, and he knew it, with a great deal of popular support among the soldiers.

That made him a threat, and at this point in his reign, Suleiman didn't react well to threats. (And for those saying 'well, what prince would dare act against his father?', my answer is, 'an early Ottoman prince'. Suleiman's own father, Selim I deposed HIS father, Bayezid II, for reasons which, oddly enough, rather mirrored the situation in the late portion of Suleiman's reign.)

Now--let's say Suleiman stays his hand, and Mustafa does come to the throne. While he seems to have been an impressive, intelligent man, he's a Sultan whose power rests largely with the soldiers, not the officials.

Such rulers are dangerous for an empire in the Ottoman's position. I suspect Mustafa's rule would begin well, and end terribly, as such men's reigns frequently do.

Sehzade Bayezid: Now this guy could have succeeded Suleiman if he actually won his war against Selim, but how would his reign turn out? Would Bayezid be an even worse choice than Selim?

Allow me to point something out--Bayezid's modern day champions like to paint him as a more militarily able prince.

The officer class of the Empire overwhelmingly sided with Selim.

That should tell you something right there.

I find most of the championing of Bayezid comes from a modern 'anyone but Selim II' stance. There's nothing in his record to suggest he'd be any better, and quite a bit to suggest he'd be worse. He seems to have been exactly the sort of scheming fool you don't want anywhere near the throne. I suspect his rule would have been rather like his nephew's--unable to trust the viziers, he'd have essentially done all he could to destroy their power, thus wiping out the very institutions his father had built to run the empire.

Sehzade Cihangir: Now it was this guy who died from grief, and not Sehzade Mehmet, after Mustafa was executed.

Cihangir is by all accounts, intelligent, sensitive, and accomplished.

He's also severely deformed, and in rather questionable health.

That does not sound like the makings of a successful sultan. And at least one reason all his brothers were so fond of the man was that he wasn't a threat.

Still--if he survives all his brothers... well, it might be interesting...

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Not to mention that during Suleiman's reign a good chunk of well talented Grand Viziers were killed off, like Rustem Pasha and Pargali Ibrahim Pasha. Surprisingly enough, Sokollu Mehmet Pasha did not become a target of either Suleiman or Selim II.

 

[danmac]

@Space Oddity: great rundown of Suleiman's sons. I have to agree that a lot of attacks on Selim II being "responsible" for the Ottoman empire's decline seem to ignore a lot of the real underlying issues with the empire, poor administration, an overly powerful Janissary corp (the same idiots who kept screaming "let's besiege Vienna again" as you noted), and a total lack of innovation within the Empire. I feel the string of weak, ineffective, and many cases outright insane Sultans in the 17th century did more to cause the empire's decline then anything else since a more effective ruler could have used his skills to hopefully reorganize the empire. Perhaps a more successful Osman II weakening the Janissaries' political power.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The main problem with any attempts to weaken the power of the Janissaries is that they could be in any position to remove the Sultan from power.

Sehzade Mehmet on the other hand, isn't well known because he died quickly after Mustafa was executed.

Now if Roxelana/Hurrem was never abducted from Crimea, Mahidevran Sultan might stand a chance of becoming Valide Sultan.

 

[alexcoppo]

The main problem with any attempts to weaken the power of the Janissaries is that they could be in any position to remove the Sultan from power.

Unless you have a strong and cunning sultan who, like Mahmud II, sets up a trap in which the Janissaries eagerly jump.