Desegregation w/o Nazis?

[John Fredrick Parker]

In OTL, the experience of fighting WWII, and facing a white supremacist enemy, had a major impact on the United States, playing a role in the end of American segregation and the advancement of African American civil rights.

Now, suppose Nazi Germany never comes to pass* -- how are these aspects of United States history changed? Does segregation last longer? Is America less concerned with racial inequality? Or does the absence of such an experience as the war actually make the transition easier? What else?

*say Hindenburg doesn't run for re-election in 1932, successor doesn't appoint Hitler chancellor, etc.

 

[Mike Stearns]

Desegregation is probably inevitable. Whether it happens in the same way, or at the same time as OTL is the real question.

 

[Mikestone8]

Crucial questions are whether no WW2 means slower decolonisation and no Cold War with the SU. The big problem was that an America competing with the SU for the support of non-white ex-colonies couldn't afford to tolerate the South's peculiarities any more.

Segregation will become more vulnerable in any event, as the mechanisation of agriculture in general and cotton in particular reduces the need for black stoop labour. But without the Cold War the pressure on the South will be a lot less.

 

[euromellows]

Add to that the fact there will be no holocaust in TTL. The psychological effects will be huge and may impact on segregation. I'm sure it's end is inevitable, but yes I think it will be delayed sadly.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

So "still inevitable, but delayed" is the consensus? If so, let's see if we can't tie it down -- for example, w/o a war on Hitler or a massive (recently desegregated) arms industry, would New York or other states pass employment non-discrimination laws in the 1940's?

 

[MNP]

I think desegregation had more to do with the USSR beating the USA over the head with how they treated blacks, than fighting the Nazis.

 

[Killer300]

I think desegregation had more to do with the USSR beating the USA over the head with how they treated blacks, than fighting the Nazis.

This. The USSR got MASSIVE propaganda points doing the whole anti-colonialism thing, and part of that is anti-racism. If the was going to compete, it had to drop its racism.

 

[Arqoi]

This. The USSR got MASSIVE propaganda points doing the whole anti-colonialism thing, and part of that is anti-racism. If the was going to compete, it had to drop its racism.

I don't think anyone took the USSR seriously though.

When a mass-murdering psychopathic regime tells you you're racist and bigoted, it's both ironic and amusing. Though I suppose there's some authenticity to the USSR's ranting, it didn't limit misery to just people of color, it gave everyone a fair share.

 

[Killer300]

I don't think anyone took the USSR seriously though.

When a mass-murdering psychopathic regime tells you you're racist and bigoted, it's both ironic and amusing. Though I suppose there's some authenticity to the USSR's ranting, it didn't limit misery to just people of color, it gave everyone a fair share.

Except a lot of people were clearly willing to use the USSR to gain independence from colonial powers. If that continues, and Communism actually remains a force of anti-colonialism... well, the West is going to have long term problems propaganda wise if it doesn't fix up its act.

It may not matter at home, but in just under imperialist domination? That's a whole other matter.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I think desegregation had more to do with the USSR beating the USA over the head with how they treated blacks, than fighting the Nazis.

This. The USSR got MASSIVE propaganda points doing the whole anti-colonialism thing, and part of that is anti-racism. If the was going to compete, it had to drop its racism.

So, alternatively, no WWII means no Cold War, thus no desegregation?

 

[Pesterfield]

as the mechanisation of agriculture in general and cotton in particular reduces the need for black stoop labour.

Mines, factories, lumberjacking, and probable more are also options.

Will no WW2 also mean a continued widescale use of peonage and convict labor in the South? The FDR Justice Department only really cracked down because of the war.

Would people be so willing to stage sit ins if arrest could mean hard labor in the coal mines?

 

[Brady Kj]

How did the war lead to this crack-down? I'm not familiar with this.

 

[Pesterfield]

They worried about the propoganda it would give the enemy.

PBS had a documentary on it, and it's still online:
http://video.pbs.org/program/slavery-another-name/

Direct to the full show: http://video.pbs.org/video/2176766758

 

[Mikestone8]

I don't think anyone took the USSR seriously though.

When a mass-murdering psychopathic regime tells you you're racist and bigoted, it's both ironic and amusing. Though I suppose there's some authenticity to the USSR's ranting, it didn't limit misery to just people of color, it gave everyone a fair share.

They did in the 1950s and early/mid '60s.

As a teenager I read quite a lot of stuff about how the Soviet GNP (or steel production or whatever) was likely to overtake the US in the early '70s. It's only since the fall of Communism that we've learned what a basket case the Soviet economy was, and especially post-Sputnik Soviet prestige was riding quite high.

Alexei Kosigin got a warm reception from ordinary Brits when he visited the UK in 1967. It was only after Brezhnev emerged as the leader (and invaded Czechoslovakia) that people really went off the SU, and even than it was a gradual process.

 

[Mike Stearns]

Mines, factories, lumberjacking, and probable more are also options.

Will no WW2 also mean a continued widescale use of peonage and convict labor in the South? The FDR Justice Department only really cracked down because of the war.

Would people be so willing to stage sit ins if arrest could mean hard labor in the coal mines?

Sooner or later someome like Thomas Murton comes forward and these practices are exposed and ended.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Will no WW2 also mean a continued widescale use of peonage and convict labor in the South? The FDR Justice Department only really cracked down because of the war.

Would people be so willing to stage sit ins if arrest could mean hard labor in the coal mines?

Sooner or later someome like Thomas Murton comes forward and these practices are exposed and ended.

Sounds like it would be later though...