Civil Rights Movement if Lincoln Lives?

[KN1]

Inspired by an old thread about Lincoln's Supreme Court

So, assuming Lincoln lives, either because Booth misses or Booth is apprehended before he can get to Lincoln. Either way, Lincoln serves a full second term, and he doesn't run for a third.

Its almost a certainty that Lincoln's Reconstruction would be better for freed slaves than Johnson's, which isn't a very high bar, but much like OTL full social and political equality would be impossible to achieve during this time. The pressure will build to admit re-admit states and militarily withdraw, leaving the freedmen vulnerable.

My question is, what actions could the Lincoln Administration take during Reconstruction to mitigate the inevitable backlash to civil rights and, in that event, when might we see a Civil Rights movement on OTL's scale?

 

[Mikestone8]

My question is, what actions could the Lincoln Administration take during Reconstruction to mitigate the inevitable backlash to civil rights and, in that event, when might we see a Civil Rights movement on OTL's scale?

Maybe appoint some more radical figures to the SCOTUS. Ben Butler maybe. He might hand down some interesting decisions. But that's about it. Once the Union Army is back to peacetime size, the government's powers of enforcement are small.

As for a Civil Rights movement, ypu probably need the Cold War to start sooner, and also decolonisation. It was the need to compete with the SU for the support of nonwhite ex-colonies which forced Washington to get serious on this matter.

 

[Admiral Spaun]

So, assuming Lincoln lives, either because Booth misses or Booth is apprehended before he can get to Lincoln

An attempted assassination by a Confederate sympathiser might have its own effects on Lincoln. It could persuade him into changing his mind on some issues.

 

[Wendell]

I think it will be slower to start, but once it happens, it won't have the reversals faced in OTL.

 

[Thomas1195]

Maybe appoint some more radical figures to the SCOTUS. Ben Butler maybe. He might hand down some interesting decisions. But that's about it. Once the Union Army is back to peacetime size, the government's powers of enforcement are small.

Lincoln probably would attempt to turn every single CSA leading figures into a James Longstreet: have them rebuilding the postwar order, preaching Unionism and reconciliation between blacks and white, hunting down KKK (you can imagine a TL where Nathaniel Forrest hunts down the KKK), tearing down their own symbols, going on speaking tours declaring the wrongness of their cause. In other words, make the men who fought the civil war, at least the most prominent ones, appear as postwar collaborators of their own cause a.k.a Petain. There would be no Lost Cause if all the leading men who embodied the cause were turned into scalawags.

Of course black equality would not be achieved right away, but it would be more sustainable, it would go a long way. The later Civil Rights Movement would inherit a higher starting point to work from.

 

[Mikestone8]

Lincoln probably would attempt to turn every single CSA leading figures into a James Longstreet: have them rebuilding the postwar order, preaching Unionism and reconciliation between blacks and white, hunting down KKK (you can imagine a TL where Nathaniel Forrest hunts down the KKK), tearing down their own symbols, going on speaking tours declaring the wrongness of their cause. In other words, make the men who fought the civil war, at least the most prominent ones, appear as postwar collaborators of their own cause a.k.a Petain. There would be no Lost Cause if all the leading men who embodied the cause were turned into scalawags.

Of course black equality would not be achieved right away, but it would be more sustainable, it would go a long way. The later Civil Rights Movement would inherit a higher starting point to work from.

Does that mean Freedmen don't get the vote?

One of the principal reasons for introducing this was to stop ex-Rebs regaining power in the South. But if they have all become reliable Unionists then of course there is no need to exclude them, hence no pressing need to pick up a political hot potato such as Black suffrage still was at that time?

 

[Thomas1195]

Does that mean Freedmen don't get the vote?

One of the principal reasons for introducing this was to stop ex-Rebs regaining power in the South. But if they have all become reliable Unionists then of course there is no need to exclude them, hence no pressing need to pick up a political hot potato such as Black suffrage still was at that time?

The Lincoln Plan did not aim to achieve full Black suffrage right away IOTL. Black suffrage would look like pre-1918 British suffrage IOTL, with only a part of them could vote.

 

[Derek Jackson]

In otl the whole Republican Party got radical in reaction to the way the South treated former slaves and indeed white Unionists. Although he was not a radical he was in fact moving in that direction. He might have been persuaded that enforcing black voting rights was a good idea

 

[Mikestone8]

In otl the whole Republican Party got radical in reaction to the way the South treated former slaves and indeed white Unionists. Although he was not a radical he was in fact moving in that direction. He might have been persuaded that enforcing black voting rights was a good idea

Even though there will be no practical way of enforcing these once the Army has reverted to normal size? Would Lincoln not be smart enough to realise this?

 

[GeographyDude]

Even though there will be no practical way of enforcing these once the Army has reverted to normal size? Would Lincoln not be smart enough to realise this?

Mike, good to see you, man! I know we’ve had some lively conversations on this very topic.

My basic answer is that you’ve got to move quickly, like Gen. Douglas MacArthur in Japan. And the motivation is to nail down the victory, and that once we decided to free the slaves (former slaves!) and do the Emancipation Proclamation, by God, we’ve got to do it right.

 

[GeographyDude]

Low-income southern whites really expected to be under the heel of blacks.

Because that’s the way people think. Look at even today at much much people expect radical change from electing this or that president. And then multiply that about tenfold from starting a war and losing a war, and a civil war to boot.

And then . . .

If a northern occupation gov’t breaks up large plantation land and distributes it 50-50 to black and white families. My, Oh My. And if Gen. Sherman takes control of, say, two southern railroads through eminent domain which puts the fear of God in the other railroads and they start giving the small farmer a very square deal. In fact, the same good deal they give the big boys.

Then that white family who used to be dirt poor and feeling trapped might think, mmm . . . they’re doing occupation, but they’re kind of doing it straight

 

[PGSBHurricane]

The Lincoln Plan did not aim to achieve full Black suffrage right away IOTL. Black suffrage would look like pre-1918 British suffrage IOTL, with only a part of them could vote.

Agreed. I feel like this part is where many people overlook. During his speech on April 11, 1865, he argued for limited black suffrage, mostly reserving it for black men who directly fought for the Union during the Civil War. Not sure if he planned to extend it beyond that.

 

[Mikestone8]

Low-income southern whites really expected to be under the heel of blacks.

Because that’s the way people think. Look at even today at much much people expect radical change from electing this or that president. And then multiply that about tenfold from starting a war and losing a war, and a civil war to boot.

And then . . .

If a northern occupation gov’t breaks up large plantation land and distributes it 50-50 to black and white families. My, Oh My. And if Gen. Sherman takes control of, say, two southern railroads through eminent domain which puts the fear of God in the other railroads and they start giving the small farmer a very square deal. In fact, the same good deal they give the big boys.

Then that white family who used to be dirt poor and feeling trapped might think, mmm . . . they’re doing occupation, but they’re kind of doing it straight

Aren't we wandering off into fantasyland here?

I know of nothing in Lincoln's record to suggest he was even considering anything remotely like this. At most I could imagine those already in possession of land in the Sea Islands and a few such corners just possibly getting to stay on it - though at some point they would probably have to start paying rent to the old owner or his heirs.

Keep in mind that a lot of these planters were old Whig colleagues whom Lincoln probably saw as the base of a Union party of some kind - once reassured that there persons and property was not at risk. And quite a few poorer whites were "poor relations" of planters and wouldn't have appreciated seeing their cousins robbed.

As for nationalising railroads - or even threatening to - who on earth ever contemplated *that*? Not even the Radicals as far as I know.

As the search function will reveal, David T and others have been over this ad nauseam, demonstrating why large-scale confiscation couldn't have happened, and would have been a fiasco even if attempted.

 

[KN1]

Even though there will be no practical way of enforcing these once the Army has reverted to normal size? Would Lincoln not be smart enough to realise this?

If the *Slaughterhouse and *Civil Rights cases are decided differently, would there not be a further legal impetus for enforcement based on quelling resurgent secessionism. OTL, as long as the Southern states remained loyal the defanged government was willing to let them be, but what if they're directly contradicting federal law?

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Lincoln would go radical with congress like OTL's congress under Johnson administration. We would see more attempts at getting prominent CS leadership on board, so weaker base for ah redemption. You probably don't see any analogue to civil rights type movements until 1930-50, more likely 50 due to technological/economic reasons thought.

 

[Thomas1195]

We would see more attempts at getting prominent CS leadership on board, so weaker base for ah redemption.

This is the key. Having Confederate leaders, the one who championed Lost Cause IOTL, instead preaching unionism and racial reconciliation and tearing down their own symbols and monuments would weaken the Lost Cause substantially if not butterflying it away. In other words, turning all OTL Lost Causers into James Longstreet/scalawags.

 

[History Learner]

Inspired by an old thread about Lincoln's Supreme Court

So, assuming Lincoln lives, either because Booth misses or Booth is apprehended before he can get to Lincoln. Either way, Lincoln serves a full second term, and he doesn't run for a third.

Its almost a certainty that Lincoln's Reconstruction would be better for freed slaves than Johnson's, which isn't a very high bar, but much like OTL full social and political equality would be impossible to achieve during this time. The pressure will build to admit re-admit states and militarily withdraw, leaving the freedmen vulnerable.

My question is, what actions could the Lincoln Administration take during Reconstruction to mitigate the inevitable backlash to civil rights and, in that event, when might we see a Civil Rights movement on OTL's scale?

Given Lincoln living creates an entirely different history of the United States, it's extremely hard to say; I don't think there was any viability to such a movement in the 19th Century and Lincoln appears of like mind on this. One thing he might do, however, is ensuring Black Union veterans are not disenfranchized, which the South might be willing to accept given Lincoln would overall have a pretty moderate policy on them overall and would be quite visibly politically fighting off the proponents of more aggressive/radical options.

 

[Mikestone8]

preaching unionism and racial reconciliation

If they are preaching unionism, where is the need for racial reconciliation?

If the ex Rebs are now perfectly loyal to the Union, why not leave them to their own devices on racial questions? What need would there be to uphold Black rights in that situation? You seem to be equating unionism with support for such rights, which is simply not true. For a conspicuous example, Andrew Johnson was a passionate unionist, but didn't give a toss about the rights of freedmen. And, north and south, there were millions like him.

Lincoln would go radical with congress like OTL's congress under Johnson administration.

But if Lincoln is alive, there has been no Johnson Administration to provoke Congress into taking a radical course. And Lincoln's top priority is reconciling the defeated South to reunion. Anything he does for Blacks will have to be compatible with that aim.

 

[Mikestone8]

If the *Slaughterhouse and *Civil Rights cases are decided differently, would there not be a further legal impetus for enforcement based on quelling resurgent secessionism. OTL, as long as the Southern states remained loyal the defanged government was willing to let them be, but what if they're directly contradicting federal law?

having mu

I can't see a different decision about a few Louisiana slaughterhouses ch impact on opinion. People were getting bored with "the annual autumnal outbreaks in the south" , and a legal technicality wouldn't change that.

The Civil Rights cases were decided 8-1, so I don't see how you change that. In any case this ruling didn't come until 1883, by which time Reconstruction was already as dead as mutton. The Court simply "rubber-stamped" a fait accompli

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

But if Lincoln is alive, there has been no Johnson Administration to provoke Congress into taking a radical course. And Lincoln's top priority is reconciling the defeated South to reunion. Anything he does for Blacks will have to be compatible with that aim.

Congress will go radical due to southern stubbornness instead of OTL's reasons.