How could Christian II avoid being deposed and hold on to the throne of Denmark and Norway until his death in 1559? How much of a difference would that make in Danish and Scandinavian politics? Wikipedia says he tried to increase the rights of commoners and bourgeoisie at the expense of the nobility, so could that go somewhere or would he have to drop most or all of these reforms to stay in power?

Bonus points if he somehow stays as king of Sweden for longer, even if he's kicked out of there later - averting the Stockholm Bloodbath should be a start.
 
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This man was so repugnant that the Swedes made up a fake Danish epithet to disparage him. The only thing I can see this leading to is an earlier loss of Scania.
 
This man was so repugnant that the Swedes made up a fake Danish epithet to disparage him. The only thing I can see this leading to is an earlier loss of Scania.

The man‘s big crime and mistake was executing a bunch of rebel, one problem was that he did it after offering them amnesty for their political crimes (they were official executed by the Church), the other problem was that they were all nobles which is often seen as the reason why the Danish nobility rebelled against him. If he had butchered the same number of Swedish peasant women and children in a church, the Swedes wouldn’t have cared.
 
I see 3 scenarios where C2 gets to rule until the end.

1. He avoids losing Sweden a la To be a Fox and a Lion

2. He loses Sweden but isn’t deposed in Denmark. Christian’s actions during the rebellion that deposed him is often described as very indecisive, if he acted more quickly and with purpose he might be able to defeat them. If so we might see Denmark become a hereditary monarchy over a century earlier than in otl.

3. he is deposed but regains the throne in the counts feud. To do this he must probably act very differently, and in either way he can probably only become king conditionally.

Of the three I probably think the second one is the most interesting one, have Christian fail being the all-scandinavian monarch he tried to in otl, but still being succesful in Denmark.
 
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Given Christian's desire to turn Denmark into a mercantile nation like the Netherlands, could he send an expedition to found a trading outpost or two in North America?
 
The short (and somewhat contradictory) answer is for him to be a bit less and bit more like his father. King Hans had already set the wheels in motion for a strengthening of the crown vis-a-vis the nobility, but he employed a far more cautious approach to politics than his son did. If Christian II had avoided tying himself too strongly to the still rather weak burgher estate, he might very well have maintained his rapport with the moderate sections of the aristocracy which saw potential in a more stable and efficient monarchy governing alongside itself.

Essentially, Christian II tried to do too much too soon and thereby managed to turn a lot of people against him. His continued liaison with Dyveke alienated his Habsburg in-laws, his callous approach to domestic policy offended the elites of the Danish realm, his German policy turned his already sulking uncle against him and his quest for the union crown brought the Wendish Hansa into a very dangerous alliance with the Swedish rebels, who for their part were naturally rather upset at his heavy-handed rule and Machiavellian extermination of the Sture Party. All of this culminated in the perfect storm that was early 1523. If dealt with one at a time each of these issues might have been weathered, but once combined there was really very little for Christian II to do other than seek help in the Netherlands. Even in exile he showed a remarkable lack of political awareness by openly declaring for the Evangelical confession whilst being entirely beholden to his brother-in-law, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.

There's a nice (still ongoing I believe) TL on him by @Milites which goes into some of the ways he could have kept his thrones if he had done some things differently :) I highly recommend it! https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...a-lion-a-different-nordic-renaissance.438569/

Well thank you :) Still ongoing, but RL is doing a number on me ATM.

2. He loses Sweden but isn’t deposed in Denmark. Christian’s actions during the rebellion that deposed him is often described as very indecisive, if he acted more quickly and with purpose he might be able to defeat them. If so we might see Denmark become a hereditary monarchy over a century earlier than in otl.

It's true that the common trope is that Christian II acted very indecisively once rebellion broke out, but by 1523 his options were really very limited. The realm was pretty much bankrupt thanks to the constant fighting in Sweden, the navy was in disrepair and what little money available to the crown could barely cover the costs of the meagre mercenary contingents available on Funen and Zealand. Even if he had had the financial capacity to hire more troops, the recruiting grounds in the Lower Saxon Circle had been effectively blockaded in late 1522 by an alliance of Lübeck, Holstein-Gottorp and Hamburg. Conversely, Frederick commanded a solid host of Landsknechts bankrolled by the Hansa and could rely on the powerful Lübeckian fleet (which freely operated in the Baltic, even sacking Bornholm) to ferry his troops across the Great Belt. While it's also true that Frederick struggled with financing his own mercenaries (but then again, what Renaissance prince didn't?) there can be little doubt that had the civil war of 1523 actually seen any large scale fighting, Christian II would most likely have come off for the worse.

1. He avoids losing Sweden a la To be a Fox and a Lion

This is, in my humble and wholly unbiased opinion, the most plausible scenario :p

Given Christian's desire to turn Denmark into a mercantile nation like the Netherlands, could he send an expedition to found a trading outpost or two in North America?

In OTL he planned to send his chief admiral on an expedition to Greenland, probably hoping to use it as a base to reach the New World. We know that there were elements around the court which lobbied for a Danish presence in America. The king's secretary Klaus Pedersen even wrote a proposal: “... I beg Your Grace, to take to heart that my proposal is neither fabrication nor a dream; I shall prove it to be truth. If our Lord God in Heaven lends us His grace and luck, then it shall benefit Your Grace and the realm of Denmark until eternity [...] But I do hope that, by the grace of God, more shall come of this enterprise than glory, wealth and honour, such as great and eternal benefits. Once I have come into Your Grace’s presence, then I shall explain the matter in such a way that Your Grace would see that I am right to declare that it is far easier for Your Grace to accomplish this task than those Spaniards, who by the day reach further and further towards Greenland…”

However, the Swedish War of Liberation put a quick stop to those schemes. In my timeline, the expedition proceeds leading to the establishment of small-scale outposts on OTL's Newfoundland.
 
It's true that the common trope is that Christian II acted very indecisively once rebellion broke out, but by 1523 his options were really very limited. The realm was pretty much bankrupt thanks to the constant fighting in Sweden, the navy was in disrepair and what little money available to the crown could barely cover the costs of the meagre mercenary contingents available on Funen and Zealand. Even if he had had the financial capacity to hire more troops, the recruiting grounds in the Lower Saxon Circle had been effectively blockaded in late 1522 by an alliance of Lübeck, Holstein-Gottorp and Hamburg. Conversely, Frederick commanded a solid host of Landsknechts bankrolled by the Hansa and could rely on the powerful Lübeckian fleet (which freely operated in the Baltic, even sacking Bornholm) to ferry his troops across the Great Belt. While it's also true that Frederick struggled with financing his own mercenaries (but then again, what Renaissance prince didn't?) there can be little doubt that had the civil war of 1523 actually seen any large scale fighting, Christian II would most likely have come off for the worse.
What would you say Christian's best chance for winning the civil war at all then was? Be it him acting differntly, or something unrelated going differently. Could he make peace with the Hansa/Sweden?
 
What would you say Christian's best chance for winning the civil war at all then was? Be it him acting differntly, or something unrelated going differently. Could he make peace with the Hansa/Sweden?

It’s difficult to say really as the civil war only broke out because the rebels were so certain that they would emerge victorious.
For example, if Christian had had more troops and more money, I’m not entirely sure if Frederick would even have acceded to the plans of the Jutlandic conspirators. Without the duke, the reactionary nobility would have lost their pretender and their strongest military asset. Indeed, when we consider the actual letters of renunciation, it was precisely Frederick’s strong force that convinced many of the nobles to desert the king.

I don’t want to blow my own trumpet too much, but I think the scenario in my own timeline is a pretty plausible take on a victorious civil war for Christian :)
 
I assume avoiding the debacle in Sweden would help Christian a lot?

It’s difficult to overstate how important pacifying Sweden would be for Christian II.

One last question: would having Christian II stay in power affect the Reformation in Scandinavia somehow?

Immensely. Christian II’s own church policy was wholly cut from bible-humanist/reform-Catholic cloth. Not only was his own conversion to Lutheranism largely formed by his personal experiences after his deposition, but the deposal itself led to more than a decade of unrest, peasant rebellions and civil war which galvanised the Evangelical movement in Denmark and created the background for the Princely Reformation of 1536. Given the fact that Christian II’s reign also led to Gustav Vasa’s rise (and Vasa’s own imposition of the Reformation in Sweden) AND the definite integration of Norway as a province of the Danish realm (with all that entails vis-a-vis the adoption of the Lutheran confession) I think it’s safe to say that Christian II succeeding would have massive butterflies on how Scandinavia responds to the Reformation.

Still, Scandinavia was generally (and Denmark in particular) considered a part of the North German cultural sphere. There was also a sizeable part of the nobility which was enamoured with Lutheran theology from both a religious and political standpoint. In other words, I don’t think that it’s totally clear cut to equalise “successful Christian II” with “Catholic Scandinavia” :)
 
It’s difficult to overstate how important pacifying Sweden would be for Christian II.



Immensely. Christian II’s own church policy was wholly cut from bible-humanist/reform-Catholic cloth. Not only was his own conversion to Lutheranism largely formed by his personal experiences after his deposition, but the deposal itself led to more than a decade of unrest, peasant rebellions and civil war which galvanised the Evangelical movement in Denmark and created the background for the Princely Reformation of 1536. Given the fact that Christian II’s reign also led to Gustav Vasa’s reign (and Vasa’s own imposition of the Reformation in Sweden) AND the definite integration of Norway as a province of the Danish realm (with all that entails vis-a-vis the adoption of the Lutheran confession) I think it’s safe to say that Christian II succeeding would have massive butterflies on how Scandinavia responds to the Reformation.

Still, Scandinavia was generally (and Denmark in particular) considered a part of the North German cultural sphere. There was also a sizeable part of the nobility which was enamoured with Lutheran theology from both a religious and political standpoint. In other words, I don’t think that it’s totally clear cut to equalise “successful Christian II” with “Catholic Scandinavia” :)
Could there be a Danish "Anglican" church of sorts, at least in the mold created by Henry VIII? Catholic in all but name, but with the king as its leader instead of the Pope? I can see angry nobles converting to Lutheranism to resist Christian's proto-absolutism.
 
Could there be a Danish "Anglican" church of sorts, at least in the mold created by Henry VIII? Catholic in all but name, but with the king as its leader instead of the Pope? I can see angry nobles converting to Lutheranism to resist Christian's proto-absolutism.

It’s generally assumed that Christian II was aiming for a Danish national church. His own church reform included a sort of Statute in Restraint of Appeals, which Cromwell pushed through Parliament in 1533. This trend was actually continued after the deposition between 1527 and 1529 where the crown and royal council assumed final jus patronatus in regards to the episcopacy.

Regarding Lutheranism as a foil for Christian’s absolutist tendencies, I don’t think that would be plausible. Luther’s theology stressed obedience towards the secular authorities above everything else (render unto Caesar etc) while also embracing the doctrine of universal priesthood. Conversely, sections of the Danish nobility (especially those who led the rising against Christian II) wanted to monopolise the episcopacy within the noble estate. The Church was a powerful political actor (and in Norway, for example, the only real rival to royal power) precisely because it operated an independent hierarchy and had its own institutions and vast wealth. Secularising the church’s possessions into the pockets of the “state” would ipso facto strengthen the crown considerably at the expense of the nobility.
 
It’s generally assumed that Christian II was aiming for a Danish national church. His own church reform included a sort of Statute in Restraint of Appeals, which Cromwell pushed through Parliament in 1533. This trend was actually continued after the deposition between 1527 and 1529 where the crown and royal council assumed final jus patronatus in regards to the episcopacy.

Regarding Lutheranism as a foil for Christian’s absolutist tendencies, I don’t think that would be plausible. Luther’s theology stressed obedience towards the secular authorities above everything else (render unto Caesar etc) while also embracing the doctrine of universal priesthood. Conversely, sections of the Danish nobility (especially those who led the rising against Christian II) wanted to monopolise the episcopacy within the noble estate. The Church was a powerful political actor (and in Norway, for example, the only real rival to royal power) precisely because it operated an independent hierarchy and had its own institutions and vast wealth. Secularising the church’s possessions into the pockets of the “state” would ipso facto strengthen the crown considerably at the expense of the nobility.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, but do you personally think this Danish Church would be more like the Gallicans in France or the English Anglicans?
 
Sorry for taking so long to reply, but do you personally think this Danish Church would be more like the Gallicans in France or the English Anglicans?

It really depends on the PoD. If I were to hazard a guess, I think the most likely outcome would be something like the Anglican Church, but with Christian II far more well disposed towards Luther than Henry VIII ever was.
 
Restarting this thread to ask: could Christian retain control of Sweden even after the Bloodbath? Say, if Gustav's rebellion is nipped in the bud somehow? Or would someone else start a similar revolt?

@Milites
 
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It’s difficult to say really as the civil war only broke out because the rebels were so certain that they would emerge victorious.
For example, if Christian had had more troops and more money, I’m not entirely sure if Frederick would even have acceded to the plans of the Jutlandic conspirators. Without the duke, the reactionary nobility would have lost their pretender and their strongest military asset. Indeed, when we consider the actual letters of renunciation, it was precisely Frederick’s strong force that convinced many of the nobles to desert the king.

I don’t want to blow my own trumpet too much, but I think the scenario in my own timeline is a pretty plausible take on a victorious civil war for Christian :)
So like if he had been paid Elizabeths full dowry during his stay 1521 in the Netherlands where he met Emperor Karl 5. who paid him part of the dowry.
 
Restarting this thread to ask: could Christian retain control of Sweden even after the Bloodbath? Say, if Gustav's rebellion is nipped in the bud somehow? Or would someone else start a similar revolt?

@Milites
Some historians have argued that Christian made two faults with the bloodbath. The first was that he killed too many, and the second was that he didn’t kill enough
 
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