Any “realistic Barbarossa” TLs?

[Gudestein]

Inspired by this thread which is an attemp to take Russian mobilisation power into consideration, but forget they need to win.

Minimal goal Barbarossa

We have had threads about "What if Hitler knew the Soviets were strong". The consensus was that, sure Nazi dogma pushed them that way, but practically it was about food. Germany was operating occupied Europe on a food deficit and even with Soviet shipments, food stocks were dwindling monthly...

www.alternatehistory.com

Is there any TL’s were the Russians are not expected to lose everything West of the Dniepr, and where the Germans still try to win?
I know I made some, but others with a post battle of France POD?

 

[ObssesedNuker]

A Sound of Thunder by the (sadly now banned) Snake Featherston is pretty good and accurate in the overall outline, even if a few of the details could ‘cause one to raise an eyebrow. The Germans decide to concentrate on Britain for another year, just barely manage to force them into a Treaty of Amiens-style cease fire, and then go for Barbarossa... only to run into a Red Army that has actually completed most of it’s reform and rearmament program.

A Sound of Thunder:

I first had the idea for this timeline when reading Calbear's excellent Anglo-American Nazi War ATL and when reading about the murkiness of Nazi-Soviet diplomacy during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I figured that it would be an interesting challenge to invert the AA/N War timeline with the...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Gudestein]

A Sound of Thunder by the (sadly now banned) Snake Featherston is pretty good and accurate in the overall outline, even if a few of the details could ‘cause one to raise an eyebrow. The Germans decide to concentrate on Britain for another year, just barely manage to force them into a Treaty of Amiens-style cease fire, and then go for Barbarossa... only to run into a Red Army that has actually completed most of it’s reform and rearmament program.

A Sound of Thunder:

I first had the idea for this timeline when reading Calbear's excellent Anglo-American Nazi War ATL and when reading about the murkiness of Nazi-Soviet diplomacy during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I figured that it would be an interesting challenge to invert the AA/N War timeline with the...

www.alternatehistory.com

Thanks, thats an outline often described in WI’s but not one I read as a TL. I ‘ll take a look

 

[Gudestein]

A Sound of Thunder by the (sadly now banned) Snake Featherston is pretty good and accurate in the overall outline, even if a few of the details could ‘cause one to raise an eyebrow. The Germans decide to concentrate on Britain for another year, just barely manage to force them into a Treaty of Amiens-style cease fire, and then go for Barbarossa... only to run into a Red Army that has actually completed most of it’s reform and rearmament program.

A Sound of Thunder:

I first had the idea for this timeline when reading Calbear's excellent Anglo-American Nazi War ATL and when reading about the murkiness of Nazi-Soviet diplomacy during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I figured that it would be an interesting challenge to invert the AA/N War timeline with the...

www.alternatehistory.com

I’ve read the prelude and opening parts of the German-Soviet war. Don’t quite buy it that the Soviets build a maginot style line in 1 year extra, but not a bad general premise. Any with a 1941 attack?

 

[Histor32]

I’ve read the prelude and opening parts of the German-Soviet war. Don’t quite buy it that the Soviets build a maginot style line in 1 year extra, but not a bad general premise. Any with a 1941 attack?

Why not they had the stalin line dug in just west of minsk.. There are lines dug in in Poland. There are several lines deep.. Not counting already built or started fleshing out lines to the west.

Problem with kiens is that they are ww1.. Not ww2. Lines are great to hopefully slow down forces but this is a vast line to cover.

Best bet is lines that run natural defense lines.. Plus having a military ready. Granted by end of 41 the Soviet military was getting there. Alas it takes time.

Now the above said

If the Soviets are even remotely ready then it's a different game.. The Germans don't have to do so well.. Se
Like Germans were just Rollin 7s up until stalingrad and might have pulled a couple more if they played by their own book. But Thankfully they didn't.

 

[Gudestein]

Why not they had the stalin line dug in just west of minsk.. There are lines dug in in Poland. There are several lines deep.. Not counting already built or started fleshing out lines to the west.

Problem with kiens is that they are ww1.. Not ww2. Lines are great to hopefully slow down forces but this is a vast line to cover.

Best bet is lines that run natural defense lines.. Plus having a military ready. Granted by end of 41 the Soviet military was getting there. Alas it takes time.

Now the above said

If the Soviets are even remotely ready then it's a different game.. The Germans don't have to do so well.. Se
Like Germans were just Rollin 7s up until stalingrad and might have pulled a couple more if they played by their own book. But Thankfully they didn't.

“But this is a vast line to cover”. Basically that is it. It could be like the AGS situation of OTL but the front would become mobile.

 

[Histor32]

“But this is a vast line to cover”. Basically that is it. It could be like the AGS situation of OTL but the front would become mobile.

One has to assume if it's a well built line. People go around it.. Or attack a week point...

But is a vast line ask the Germans and the Atlantic wall or French on the magnoit line.

So it's complicated. But having an intact command and control structure would go along way to Avoid the losses and mistakes made in otl

 

[Gudestein]

One has to assume if it's a well built line. People go around it.. Or attack a week point...

But is a vast line ask the Germans and the Atlantic wall or French on the magnoit line.

So it's complicated. But having an intact command and control structure would go along way to Avoid the losses and mistakes made in otl

I’m not saying the SU couldn’t do better than IOTL, but it is a massive difference in performance they iotl had to learn, in that TL they just prepared into. That’s quite an achievement. Also, imagine a situation like for AGS on all fronts, not an easy situation for the Germans.
Also, I simply don’t believe the Germans would not be better prepared than in 1941

 

[Histor32]

I’m not saying the SU couldn’t do better than IOTL, but it is a massive difference in performance they iotl had to learn, in that TL they just prepared into. That’s quite an achievement. Also, imagine a situation like for AGS on all fronts, not an easy situation for the Germans.
Also, I simply don’t believe the Germans would not be better prepared than in 1941

I agree completely.

Germans went east with an idea but the plan was fluid.. Just win or go home in a box if lucky.

Also the German window of execution was late.

Now if the Soviets had their house in better order and or stalin actually acted faster that makes a difference as well.

Need to avoid the heavy losses of the first 60 days

 

[Basils]

Wasn’t there one in the last few years with the Germans going to take out Leningrad after they take Sevastopol? With no massive overextending with case blue, taking out Leningrad would free up a lot of troops and force the surrender of many Soviet forts and end their naval presence. They’d also be forced to attack and try and relieve the city. Which as seen IOTL they did a bad job attacking in that direction in 42.
You end up with less Axis losses and more importantly less transport strain and more Soviet losses. Wonder if they’d lose a lot of plans and boats trying to supply the city once the siege started to get bad?

 

[Gudestein]

Wasn’t there one in the last few years with the Germans going to take out Leningrad after they take Sevastopol? With no massive overextending with case blue, taking out Leningrad would free up a lot of troops and force the surrender of many Soviet forts and end their naval presence. They’d also be forced to attack and try and relieve the city. Which as seen IOTL they did a bad job attacking in that direction in 42.
You end up with less Axis losses and more importantly less transport strain and more Soviet losses. Wonder if they’d lose a lot of plans and boats trying to supply the city once the siege started to get bad?

Do you have the link? I don’t think it is what I am looking for. For the Germans there are maybe a few options in 1942, but time is starting to run out by then. As an example of a TL if Germany considered the SU a competent threat: the strategy if they were better prepared could be to have sufficient panzer (no/earlier Greece) to make the early encirclements also in the south and then be sure to take at least one strategic target(e.g Leningrad, Moscow or (not and) Ukraine and then prepare to work efficiently to improve the logistics before winter. This would give more Soviet losses, less German losses and they could perhaps be in a good jump off position to take the other two in 1942. This wou

 

[merlin]

As a sign of co-operation, the Soviet military 'experts' were given a tour of German tank factories. The Germans were a bit taken aback by the abuse for not showing their heavy tanks! OTL - nothing was done about it, only thought about in hindsight after the appearance of the KV tanks. But quite plausible to think, that the Russians have heavy tanks themselves - Germany up-guns the Pz- II & Iv earlier than OTL, and advances work on the Tiger.

As for TLs - well there's the Moscow Option - where Hitler is injured and in a coma after an air crash - the Generals take Moscow - but afterwards, with Hitler recovering, go south - the Soviets recover, more slowly than OTL, but recover.
Or Hitler's Panzer East - where Moscow is taken in August, Leningrad later falls - being unsupported, the Germans push on to Gorki, while other formations clean up in the South - game over.
NB both these are books.
Other options - Peace in the West (no problem with oil), a senior Pole - reads Mein Kampf and decides - rather speak German as second language than Russian!
Or, no Hitler in charge, but a democratic Germany, right wing government in France as a reaction to Moscow backed communist led strikes. Leads to VT being 'swept under the carpet'. German rearmament regarded as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism - nevertheless years later Russia invades Finland ......
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