American politics without the Mexican-American War?

Suppose that Mexico has an easier time in the first few years after its independence (several PODs can be used for that, the best one probably being Vicente Guerrero accepting his defeat in the 1828 presidential election instead of launching a coup) to the point it is strong enough to avoid the Texas Revolution and the Mexican-American War, retaining its original borders in the process.

How can US politics be affected by the lack of this massive territorial expansion, which was supported by the southern states and opposed by their northern counterparts? Will this lead to an earlier Civil War, or could such a thing be avoided entirely?
 
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.
 
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.
This is a good post, listen to it.

Worth noting from the 1800s to the 1830s America was willing to purchase what is now the northern half of Texas, after the 1830s wanted the Rio Grande but it and independent Texas was willing to settle for the Nueces and Pecos, and starting the same decade was also hoping to purchase the lands north of the 37th parallel (the future Utah Territory and NorCal). Also worth noting that Texas above the TX-Colorado River and that 37th parallel was pretty much devoid of Mexican settlers versus below those would-be borders (San Antonio and Tejano settlement was below that river, New Mexico was fairly thickly settled, the Californios were in coastal California from Monterey southward since San Francisco was still a religious mission and not a civilian town till 1835...).
 
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.
They can once Santa Anna and or others send an army and crush those rebels and expell those immigrants out
 
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.
I disagree. I think Mexico with better leadership could hold on to it’s northern territories (and limit immigration into Texas).
 
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.
This is a good post, listen to it.

Worth noting from the 1800s to the 1830s America was willing to purchase what is now the northern half of Texas, after the 1830s wanted the Rio Grande but it and independent Texas was willing to settle for the Nueces and Pecos, and starting the same decade was also hoping to purchase the lands north of the 37th parallel (the future Utah Territory and NorCal). Also worth noting that Texas above the TX-Colorado River and that 37th parallel was pretty much devoid of Mexican settlers versus below those would-be borders (San Antonio and Tejano settlement was below that river, New Mexico was fairly thickly settled, the Californios were in coastal California from Monterey southward since San Francisco was still a religious mission and not a civilian town till 1835...).
Look, I'll be as polite as I can.

Mexico was in an utterly dreadful spot in the early half of the 19th century. It went through a long and exceptionally destructive war of independence, an empire that lasted barely a year, near perpetual political instability (with only one peaceful transfer of power in almost thirty years) and a war with France. Fix even one of these problems and the others will definitely be lessened (if not straight up butterflied, like the Pastry War could very well be), drastically strengthening Mexico's financial and military position.

So please, please stay on the main topic I raised on the OP. Don't lecture me about the inevitability of Manifest Destiny.
 
Last edited:
Mexico cannot hold on to all those territories, and there's a good chance the US still gets them eventually.
It would become a demographic conflict, and the US was already winning it. Northern Mexico had a significant amount of Americans living there, and their numbers were growing faster than those of actual Mexicans. For context, there were less than 90,000 people living in the land annexed by the US, around 1% of the population of Mexico. It'd be easy to turn those territories into basically extensions of America.
Most likely scenario is California and most of the desert areas break away due to American immigration. Mexico doesn't have the population or power to hold onto California. I can imagine Mexico hanging onto some more than OTL, but the US really wanted California.

This is always so disturbing to deal with. Not blaming you in particular, but you're wrong on the facts.

There were about 150,000 Mexican citizens within California's borders alone who don't get counted in when this type of argument is made. You're quoting a number using the '49er definition of people, and Indians weren't People. They didn't get discussed by a certain sort of new Californian newspaper or leader because it was inconvenient for the ongoing project of eliminating them. They don't get counted rhetorically because it's uncomfortable and awkward to start every conversation about early California with the population replacement, when it's "supposed to" be a tale of luck and growth, adventure and dreams. That it's a fairly modern-style, clear-cut case of deliberate genocide is much less fun to talk about.

That's California's modern borders, by the way, excluding the significant Indian populations in Alta California that were left outside the state border. New Mexican natives were more likely to be counted and there's less of an issue with this, mostly because they weren't wiped out.

It goes on because there are quotes to be found by the settlers who seized power and early figures who talked with purpose as if Indians weren't a significant presence. But this really is not a historical question. The actual record is clear that the numbers you quote there weren't based on reality.
 
Last edited:
I disagree. I think Mexico with better leadership could hold on to it’s northern territories (and limit immigration into Texas).
Santa Anna ruling as figure head where Lucas Alaman and Francisco Echeverria, two competent convervatives as it looks like imo do most of the work. But Santa Anna stepping in if they are to go to far to leash them back to the middle ground and he is in some kind of middle ground where he would introduce reforms and others as he let those two conservatives rule and stabilize Mexico. Might do that
 
Suppose that Mexico has an easier time in the first few years after its independence (several PODs can be used for that, the best one probably being Vicente Guerrero accepting his defeat in the 1828 presidential election instead of launching a coup) to the point it is strong enough to avoid the Texas Revolution and the Mexican-American War, retaining its original borders in the process.

How can US politics be affected by the lack of this massive territorial expansion, which was supported by the southern states and opposed by their northern counterparts? Will this lead to an earlier Civil War, or could such a thing be avoided entirely?
Best case would be Santa Anna going in power during the first election 1824 iirc and like do his thing where he flip flops, stays in position as compromise candidate and puts the radicals and liberals out, mainly the remaining people in government are either the conservatives, moderate liberals, moderate conservatives the centrists and the turncoats. Maybe keep him there for a long time, add in at least a half competent performance and a medium corrupt government, that would be Mexico light years in progress compared to that Time otl
 
Look, I'll be as polite as I can.

Mexico was in an utterly dreadful spot in the early half of the 19th century. It went through a long and exceptionally destructive war of independence, an empire that lasted barely a year, near perpetual political instability (with only one peaceful transfer of power in almost thirty years) and a war with France. Fix even one of these problems and the others will definitely be lessened (if not straight up butterflied, like the Pastry War could very well be), drastically strengthening Mexico's financial and military position.

So please, please stay on the main topic I raised on the OP. Don't lecture me about the inevitability of Manifest Destiny.
That wasn't my intent at all to "lecture". I'll assume the broad strokes otherwise and non-Mexican affairs for America go as expected, or at least more or less with butterflies here and there.

It's getting a Pacific coast since the Oregon Question was settled peacefully and no Mexican War doesn't really change the 49th was pretty much becoming more and more the accepted boundary line once a settlement was reached. This is a bit more notable for the topic as it sounds, because the majority of settlers pushing into the PNW were northerners be it by ship or via the Oregon Trail. This'll already make the writing on the wall more obvious to the south that the balance of power is swinging to the north, and even if you see perhaps certain proposed or OTL states in the south split off from existing ones/admitted earlier for senatorial balance (your West Virginias or Nickajacks, *Oklahoma opened up earlier) the population advantage is still ultimately for the north.

A subtle point in the Civil War of OTL is that it got accelerated by the Mexican Cession and Oregon Country, but like 95% of the fighting still happened east of the 98th meridian, where the majority of the American population was (and is) still located. A Civil War or some form of armed conflict feels inevitable for a USA that managed to keep a parity between north and south for so long even without a Texas or even more western lands to turn into formal slave states, the south won't stand for becoming the junior section after de-facto dominating the government for decades and it'll feel this crunch even more without Texas and with Oregon. I can see the argument that the lack of Texans hurts recruitment and supplies for any rebelling south, but the lack of a Mexican War to cut a lot of officers' teeth on may show up some even more serious incompetency and bungling generalship in any Civil War till they begin learning how to command properly. Mostly the north'll need someone willing to fight as in OTL, be that Grant or whoever else, since it still holds all the industry and much greater population and can so grind the south down as in OTL.

You could ironically maybe see some Confederates pull the Brazilian Confederado situation into northern Mexico anyway if only because it's closer, but if they were willing to go that far to Brazil I don't know why that cannot happen either.

If you do get a gold rush in California in some form no doubt many Americans will come in - that rush attracted an international audience and I always feel California's gonna be multiethnic no matter if it's independent or controlled by anyone - but many more of them will move back home once the rush is done with since presumably more Mexicans will be rushing up north to a Mexican California. I suppose in the long term also more of what would be Texians and 49ers will instead stay in the Midwest, Upper South, or congregate on the Great Plains more, especially the Oregon Trail route for a continuous band of trade, travel, and settlement across the country. A lot of energy and economics that was put into the west coast over history will instead remain in the old 1819 borders, and the inland/flyover area of the USA'll probably be a good chunk better off with that than OTL's.
 
Top