Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[Bougnas]

I never noticed, but the wheel station anchors on the A27 cruiser tank and derivatives are naturally well-suited for use of torsion bars with next to no space penalty (at least no height penalty). So you could integrate TBs without increasing height and while saving approx 20cm of width which was taken by the coil springs of the normal suspension.

They are also present on Covenanter and therefore Crusader:

Cruiser III and IV also seem to have similar cross tubes. What is funny is that some British cars or trucks already had torsion bar suspension as early as 1920, so just like in the US, Germany, Sweden, France and the USSR this was a potential option in the interwar period.

As a random side thought, the Valentine shared the suspension and (initially) the powerplant of the A10 cruiser tank, which weighed 14.3 tonnes but was upweighed to 16 long tons to test the viability of Valentine. Britain was able to build rolled steel plates of greater thickness than 30mm even in the interwar, so this makes me think that a more heavily armored 16-ton A10 is possible. Less armored than a Valentine for sure but with a roomier 3-man turret from day one, and 40mm would be perfectly possible in many areas, maybe even a 50mm or 60mm faceplate since those thicknesses were used in the Valentine OTL.

 

[cortz#9]

Is the Armor welded or cast?
If it's cast you read my mind where the Italian SI is gonna go with Italian Armor in cast
Well done sir

Since it's an alternate design, let's say cast.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Since it's an alternate design, let's say cast.

Interesting. Once you can manage larger castings it is pretty useful as it cuts out a fair bit of fabrication time (possibly man hours rather than clock time cooling and heat treatments can be quite slow) as well as minimising use of rivets.
Better still it creates an opportunity to mention gudgeon pins (great word) when talking about assembling cast French tank bodies.

 

[wtdtd]

If it's cast you read my mind where the Italian SI is gonna go with Italian Armor in cast

I don't see a thread if i look at the ones you have started, could you drop a link here when you start?
Thx!

 

[cortz#9]

Interesting. Once you can manage larger castings it is pretty useful as it cuts out a fair bit of fabrication time (possibly man hours rather than clock time cooling and heat treatments can be quite slow) as well as minimising use of rivets.
Better still it creates an opportunity to mention gudgeon pins (great word) when talking about assembling cast French tank bodies.

Gudgeon, gudgeon. I like that word, it's grungy.

 

[BlackDragon98]

What's better overall, welded or cast armor?

 

[Not James Stockdale]

What's better overall, welded or cast armor?

Cast armor is usually weaker in terms of RHAe than rolled armor. However, casting allows for a more efficient protection scheme because parts of the tank don't need to have corners. There are many factors that are more important in determining a tank's success on the battlefield.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Cast armor is usually weaker in terms of RHAe than rolled armor. However, casting allows for a more efficient protection scheme because parts of the tank don't need to have corners. There are many factors that are more important in determining a tank's success on the battlefield.

Yep. Curves are good for deflecting shots, welding and machining is reduced, no or fewer rivets, and seams, less wastage of material.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

What's better overall, welded or cast armor?

Isn't casting better for mass production (assuming you have the industry for it already)?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Sloped Armour Carro Armato M12/40
View attachment 844708
An M13/40 with sloped armoured hull, turret is the same as OTL. Figured the tank would be a little lighter so the Italians rounded it out to 12 hence the designation change.
I don't think it would've been a big improvement but I think it's cute.

I really like it and I might steal it .

Although I'll reference you accordingly.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Isn't casting better for mass production (assuming you have the industry for it already)?

Generally casting is good for mass production.

Casting is usually faster once you have the moulds, and the pieces come out more or less ready to assemble which is good for mass production. But it's also time consuming to do any heat treatment needed to minimise warping on cooling and to ensure the metal structure is suitable (not too fast which makes it brittle) and not too slow (or it won't be hard enough).
It's a bit like welding - you need special equipment, but no more rivets, and - once you have electric welding in place of gas welding - it's very good and reliable provided you have people who can work out how to weld without making the weld a weakpoint.
For casting, you need specialist casting moulds, foundries, heat treatment ovens etc.
Older methods - bolted and rivetted are easier to do with traditional skills and limited technology and with specialist input.

 

[Claymore]

Meanwhile, Kampfgruppe Knockwurst prepares to repulse the Soviet’s 8th Guards Tank Army…

 

[wietze]

Meanwhile, Kampfgruppe Knockwurst prepares to repulse the Soviet’s 8th Guards Tank Army…

View attachment 844943

is that herr gruber? (for yr old tv references lol)

 

[pattontank12]

Okay so dumb idea: Let's say that in an alternate timeline China was able to pull a semi successful Meji style modernization. With it eventually coming into direct military conflict with the United States in an analog to the Pacific War. Now what kind of armored vehicles would we see the two using?


Another idea would be a three way Cold War between the United States, Soviet Union and China. With it facing the OTL pressure of the Fulda Gap AND a potential large scale war in Asia with China. So what kind of armor would we see being developed? For instance while the Soviet's would still have their numerical advantage over the West they'd also have to fight a numerically superior China over the Siberian Plains.

 

[cortz#9]

Okay so dumb idea: Let's say that in an alternate timeline China was able to pull a semi successful Meji style modernization. With it eventually coming into direct military conflict with the United States in an analog to the Pacific War. Now what kind of armored vehicles would we see the two using?


Another idea would be a three way Cold War between the United States, Soviet Union and China. With it facing the OTL pressure of the Fulda Gap AND a potential large scale war in Asia with China. So what kind of armor would we see being developed? For instance while the Soviet's would still have their numerical advantage over the West they'd also have to fight a numerically superior China over the Siberian Plains.

ITTL are the Chinese allied with any other nation, Germany, the Soviet Union?

 

[pattontank12]

ITTL are the Chinese allied with any other nation, Germany, the Soviet Union?

I'm thinking either an alternate Imperial Germany or it's solely an American affair on the first one.

 

[cortz#9]

I'm thinking either an alternate Imperial Germany or it's solely an American affair on the first one.

Interesting.
I'll give it some thought.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Okay so dumb idea: Let's say that in an alternate timeline China was able to pull a semi successful Meji style modernization. With it eventually coming into direct military conflict with the United States in an analog to the Pacific War. Now what kind of armored vehicles would we see the two using?

I can give you a couple of scenarios that would complete the backstory, if you are thinking about expanding this into a TL.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Another idea would be a three way Cold War between the United States, Soviet Union and China. With it facing the OTL pressure of the Fulda Gap AND a potential large scale war in Asia with China. So what kind of armor would we see being developed? For instance while the Soviet's would still have their numerical advantage over the West they'd also have to fight a numerically superior China over the Siberian Plains.

Mao dies during the Long March and with German assistance, the ChiComs are crushed.
After China wins WW2 as per OTL, but gets into issues with Soviet Union, who strips Manchuria of all its industry like locusts before US pressure forces them to leave.
China avoids the nightmare of the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, quickly becoming the 3rd world superpower with US assistance, before the Sino-US split (like over the sovereignty of certain islands in the South China Sea and Pacific Ocean, especially since Taiwan is a province of China here) divides to formerly erstwhile allies.

Chinese tank development in OTL only started after the ChiComs took power and it was mostly copying Soviet tech until the Sino Soviet split forced them to use their own brains.
ITTL, I think Chinese AFV development post WW2 would be initially non-existent, as they can just buy all the M4 Shermans and M5 Stuarts and other US WW2 surplus. The US would be happy to supply China so they can put pressure on the Soviet Far East.
Development would only begin to start in the late 1950s, with the Soviets field their T-55s and the US with their M48s, both of which are clearly superior to the WW2 surplus Chiang's China has.
Upgrading the Sherman would be the first step, but I could see something similar to the Amur River incident leading to China obtaining a T-62 or T-55, which inspires a Chinese design similar to the T-55.

 

[Concerned Brazilian]

The Bernardini T3 Osório was a medium tank/main battle tank developed by Brazil in the mid-1950s.

During and after World War II, the Brazilian Army primarily operated M4 Sherman, M3 Lee and M5 Stuart tanks of American origin. A 1950 document estimated 218 total tanks in Brazilian Army service.

By the early 1950s, these tanks were increasingly obsolete in front of technological advancements by the United States and Soviet Union, especially the ones that led to the main battle tank.

Therefore, in early 1954, the Bernardini armored vehicle company began work on a modern medium tank. Bernardini decided to use the L7 rifled gun employed by the British Centurion, and a Browning .50 gun as secondary armament.

The new tank's weight was kept at 38 tons, to make it light enough for Brazil's transportation systems to handle. Its armor was also relatively light.

Serial production of the T3 Osório began in 1958, and by 1960, 118 units had been produced. By 1964, the Osório had fully replaced the World War II-era tanks in the Brazilian inventory, being the only tank operated by Brazil.

By 1970, the Osório was mostly out of date as a new generation of MBTs developed. Therefore, the Brazilian government bought 104 Leopard 1 tanks from West Germany two years later.

Brazil's T3s were sold off to various foreign countries: 24 to Bolivia, 35 to Peru, and 24 to Nigeria, where the tank was used in various military coups. It was retired in 2006, 1993 and 1983, respectively.