AHC: Create the Largest Naval Battle you can sometime after the start of WW1

[naraic]

In terms of sheer number of ships Harwich force attempted to join the Grand Fleet for Jutland (Admiralty recalled them) but that's immediately an extra 40 ships to join the fleet.

The Germans kept predreadnoughts with the High Seas Fleet while the British kept predreadnoughts away from the Grand Fleet.

The British wouldn't have attached predreadnoughts to the Grand Fleet directly as it would have slowed the Fleet. That said if the goal is to bulk up Jutland the idea of attaching predreadnoughts to the Grand Fleet was suggested by Burney. He suggested a battlesquadron of predreadnoughts trailing the Grand Fleet that could be assigned to support destroyer squadrons in policing crippled German capital ships.

 

[yulzari1]

Basing upon War Plan Red in 1927. The Anglo Japanese naval treaty etc remains in place and France joins in with Britain in a declaration of war upon the USA invading Canada. The French declaring a duty to protect the Francophones of Canada. Japan sees the opportunity in backing up Britain.
Thus an opportunity to see two huge fleet actions. One in the North Atlantic between the US Navy and the combined Royal Navy and French Navy whilst, in the Pacific a meeting of the US Navy and the combined Japanese and British Empire navies

For the next level fleets the Italians remain neutral in theory but commit to defending France, releasing French Mediterranean vessels for the North Atlantic fleet. The Germans undertake a similar action for the North Sea releasing a few more Royal Navy vessels. There is no expectation that they will actually come into action in either case. Ditto for the Dutch.

For the navies of South America, they fear such aggressive action by their clumsy northern neighbour but have no desire to join in the war offensively but create a mixed fleet to deny the use of the Panama canal to belligerent warships. This has potential to go horribly wrong as the Canal Zone is still under US control but the US Navy has more urgent problems perhaps.

The Canadian Navy is already in action and the navies of Australia and New Zealand join the British Pacific fleet with their Japanese allies. In fact, in the Pacific the Japanese are the major component. Political talks persuade the Japanese that overall command by them would have future propaganda issues as an attack by an Asian power on the USA but slightly less so as a part of a British commanded fleet so operational command is with the Royal Navy.

The objective of the two actions is to bring the US Navy to battle to be defeated in battle thus freeing the seaways for the combined armies to be transported across the oceans. Not to mention isolating the USA from trade. In the Pacific the largest British component being the Indian Army with integrated British and other Empire forces. The French have the largest army that can be rapidly raised in the Atlantic theatre together with a smaller British army component.

The aim being to either force the Americans to withdraw and sue for peace or to defeat them on land with the armies of the British, French and Japanese Empires. The Japanese are very aware that the Soviet Union is not involved and free to take advantage of any perceived weakness of the Japanese army so they have to retain substantial forces in their Asian holdings. Not to mention Chinese revanchism.

 

[Giant Man Eating Rabbits]

Basing upon War Plan Red in 1927. The Anglo Japanese naval treaty etc remains in place and France joins in the Britain in a declaration of war upon the USA invading Canada. The French declaring a duty to protect the Francophones of Canada. Japan sees the opportunity in backing up Britain.
Thus an opportunity to see two huge fleet actions. One in the North Atlantic between the US Navy and the combined Royal Navy and French Navy whilst, in the Pacific a meeting of the US Navy and the combined Japanese and British Empire navies

Don't know if these might help?, although you might have to separate the land campaign from the sea offensive.

 

[Jellico]

I mean, "How did they plan to fight each other?" and "What if Britain Invaded America", gives the game away. The RN had been told since what, the 1890s? the 1880s? don't even think about it. This was very much a one sided American dream not unlike the Japanese dreams of the USN waltzing over the Pacific getting meat grinded the whole way.

In any case, there is no call for a major fleet battle. The only thing that is likely to form a target worth a big battle is the resupply of Canada, and how viable is holding Canada really? Bermuda? Come hit a fleet base, it will be fun. The only way you get a big battle is if the RN wants one. Given the lack of USN fast units the RN is free to go all Scarborough on the East Coast. Eventually the US will have the assets to go raiding the trade lanes, but that will take years, and by that time the US merchant marine will have been wiped out (again) because the RN is good at that. The point I am making is that the USN is set up for a Mahanian rumble, but there is no great strategic need for the RN to play that game.

 

[1Big Rich]

Benny the Moose gets overcome with a desire to play a bigger role in the Fall of France and orders the Italian battleline to sortie against the French? Without any research, I don't know where the bulk of the French battlefleet were in June 1940

MN dispositions

Situation de la flotte à la signature de l'armistice (21 juin 1940)

Part of this site

France, 1940

On the RM side, with regards to the capital ships, in June of 1940 only Giulio Cesare and Conti di Cavour were in commission historically. Andrea Doria and Cao Duilio were still in yard hands for their rebuilds, though near completion. And Littorio and Vittorio Veneto weren't operational until August 1940.

Regards,

 

[edgeworthy]

War Plan Red????

War Plan Red kicks off and both USN & RN fleets meet north of Bermuda!

As a variation, the US attempts to "Free" Ireland and the Combined Fleets meet at The Battle of Rockall!

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Okay - the largest credible (well...) Jutland I can come up with.

POD's

1. The Supreme Autocrat, Tsar Alexander III, rules out an alliance with republican France. His army can deal with the Habsburgs, and he can deal with that Prussian boy!
2. With no other credible partners, Britain & France ally, mostly due to the perceived Russian threat to their colonial holdings.
3. France has ended up with an alliance with the USA (possibly the least credible of them all) - I did consider a War Plan Red scenario with the USA joining the Central Powers, but that would lead to less than full commitment of both the Royal Navy and US Navy given other theatres.
4. The Dreadnought revolution comes 2 years later, so allowing extra classes of pre-dreadnoughts, semi-dreadnoughts and even some smaller dreadnoughts - thinking her of the Lord Nelson's, the Danton's, the Satsuma's and (reclassing them) the South Carolina's, as well as the latest armoured cruisers.
5. The Third Balkan War breaks out in 1914 but without the alliance system (which was bollox according to a certain E Blackadder) there is no conflict in Western Europe; Germany & Austria-Hungary take on Serbia & Russia. Much to folks' surprise the Russian steamroller doesn't steam or roll, and after two years the Central Powers are victorious (possible revolution in Russia) - only a one-front war (perhaps the TTL Westwall is named after some random German general - how about the Schlieffen Line?)
6. To keep their north flank on the Baltic threat-free, the Germans offer to return some of the territory they occupy (Poland? Livonia?) in exchange for the Russian Baltic Fleet being handed over - as the Russian fleet did bugger all for the Tsar (or the new Soviet rulers) hand over the worthless ships for Warsaw or Riga etc.
7. The British have been in a naval arms race with the Germans for a few years, now they realise the monster in the room hadn't been the Tsar but the Kaiser...

The British arming in the race is fuelled by an additional 3-5 years of peace, while the Germans only have 1-2 years of a one-front war. The BEF is given up for a few more dreadnoughts.

As part of the alliance, the French are solely responsible for land warfare (they have Plan XVIII - we sit on the frontier and hope no-one comes - let's call this the Grandmaison Line) but also the naval position in the Mediterranean, where the Marine Nationale keep watch over the Italian and Austro-Hungarian navies (and the Turks, Greeks, Russians, Spanish etc.) [I chose this to remove the temptations of adding loads of French, Italian or Habsburg battle squadrons to the North Sea so trying desperately to retain some credibility.

Some random event causes outbreak of war - perhaps the Kaiser doesn't accept his defeat at the Cowes Regatta? - around 1918 [allowing more building time for dreadnoughts]. The fleets come out immediately for Der Tag [so no-one find out how bad pre-dreadnoughts and armoured cruisers are in a dreadnought battleship engagement] with every ship they can put to sea...

Numbers to follow.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

I am going to restrict the analysis to capital ships - battleships (dreadnoughts - super, ordinary, small, semi or pre-versions), battlecruisers and armoured cruisers. If we start counting light cruisers, destroyers and torpedo-boats (let alone subs) my spreadsheet will explode.

Right - Jellicoe's fleet at Jutland (before Beatty lost a chunk of it) comprised: -
Dreadnoughts (BB) = 28
Battlecruisers (BC) = 9
Pre-dreadnoughts (B) covering semi-dreadnoughts and small/slow early dreadnoughts = 0
Armoured Cruisers (AC) = 8 [only counting the latest classes]

Obviously, as war breaks out 3-5 years later, and the fleets clash on day one, actual wartime losses can be added to this total - +1 BB (Audacious) +1 B (King Edward VII) +1 AC (Natal).

In addition there were a number of vessels available but not present at Jutland - newly commissioned & working up, in dockyard hands, in the Med, etc. So we can add: -
+4 BB: Dreadnought; Emperor of India; Queen Elizabeth; Royal Sovereign.
+1 BC: Australia.
+9 B: The seven remaining King Edward VII class + Lord Nelson & Agamemnon.
+6 AC: Devonshire; Carnarvon; Antrim; Roxburgh; Argyll; Cochrane.

Allowing both sides to maximise their pre-war shipbuilding capacity we can add +4 BB for an extra ship in each of the Bellerophon, St. Vincent, Neptune & Queen Elizabeth classes. Also +3 BC for extra Indefatigable, Queen Mary & Tiger single ships.

In the extra two years granted by Dreadnought's late arrival on the scene, the RN can probably add +8 B (Lord Nelson or variants) and +8 AC being the leaked (fake) design for Invincible.

The Japanese do lend their Kongo's to the RN so +4 BC.

Planned vessels should be built in time - the two Revenge-class that were built and the three that were not = +5 BB - but no Renown or Repulse as BC. But we do get the four Admiral-class (Hood and her sisters) +4 BC.

There would be at least two follow-on classes after Revenge (another two year gap in the stretched timeline) so +8 BB - but no Courageous, Glorious or Furious - or at least not in their actual guise.

The Empire supports the Mother Country with additional vessels to follow the examples of Australia, New Zealand & Malaya (hopefully the Australia & New Zealand are Lion-class instead of repeat Indefatigable's). Canada builds the three Queen Elizabeth voted down OTL (+3 BB); they add a battlecruiser (+1 BC) and earlier on some pre-dreadnoughts (repeat King Edward VII) and armoured cruisers (Duke of Edinburgh class) = +4B +4AC. India and South Africa both finance the building of a dreadnought and two armoured cruisers each (+ BB +4 AC).

The naval arms race is not purely euro-centric, with South American navies and Mediterranean governments joining in. Unfortunately Agincourt, Erin and Canada have all been sold by this time (-3 BB) but there will still be plenty on the stocks to "borrow": -
Greece +1 BB +1 BC
Turkey +2 BB
Spain +3 B (the small Espana-class counted as a "small" dreadnought.
Brazil +2 BB +1 BC
Chile +1 BB.

So the Jellicoe / Beatty military-industrial complex known as the Grand Fleet now numbers 58 BB, 24 BC, 25B and 31AC,

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Hipper & Scheer took to the Skaggerak: -
BB = 16
BC = 5
B = 6
AC = 0

The only OTL wartime casualty was Blucher at Dogger Bank +1 AC.

Unavailable for Skaggerak or commissioning shortly afterwards were Konig Albert, Bayern & Baden (+3 BB), Goeben (not in the Med TTL so +1 BC) and the remaining Braunschweig's (+4 B).

Again, maximising German shipbuilding capacity, helped financially by s short, one-front victorious war, would allow the HSF additional ships to accompany the Nassaau, Helgoland & Konig classes (+3 BB); extra Von der Tann, Seydlitz & Derfflinger classes (+3 BC). They would be joined by Sachsen & Wurttemburg (+2 BB) and Hindenburg (+1 BC).

Additional ships built 1906-07: Ersatz Kaiser and Ersatz Wittelsbach classes +10 B joined by the planned other 5 repeat Blucher's (+5 AC).

The Russian prizes would be the Gangut's (+4 BB), the Borodino's (+4 BC) and the Rurik (+1 AC).

Planned for post-1916 were the Mackensen-class (+4 BC). Possible the additional 2 years allow the following classes for 1918: -
Ersatz Friedrich III, Ersatz Brandenburg and Ersatz Hohenzollern classes (+12 BB)
Ersatz Scharhorst, Ersatz Yorck, Ersatz Roon (+9 BC)

Finally, having won the bid to build the new Dutch Navy, the Germans acquire +3 BB +3 BC as well as a Greek battleshiup in place of Salamis (+1 BB) and a battlecruiser for Argentina (+1 BC).

So the new HSF comprises: -
BB =45
BC = 30
B = 22
AC = 7

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Are we talking tonnage or total number of ships?

If tonnage well theoretically your biggest naval battle could be a convoy escort mission against Soviet submarines in the Cold War. Cargo ships are pretty big.

Kind of cheating but still.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

And the swing states..

By my calculations the US Navy at the time of Jutland numbered: -
BB = 11 (up to New Mexico class but excluding South Carolina & Michigan)
BC = 0
B = 13 (the latest pre-dreadnoughts + South Carolina & Michigan, but Mississippi & Idaho not sold to Greece)
AC = 8

The only wartime losses were California/San Diego and Tennessee/Memphis (+2 AC)

Reasonable to assume that pre-war with additional time the US would have built perhaps 8 South Carolina or variant class (+8 B), a couple of extra Delaware & Florida classes (+4 BB), and some of those nice big armored cruisers the admirals loved (+4 AC).

Planned building, with the 1916 increase a litte early would see completion of the Standards (Tennessee to Washington, which escapes her cancellation) = +6 BB as well as the South Dakota class as designed (+6 BB) and the Lexington class battecruisers (+6 BC).

I'll allow the USN to beg/borrow/steal 3 Argentinian dreadnoughts being fitted-out in American shipyards (+ 3BB)

So the USN joins in with: -
BB = 30
BC = 6
B = 21
AC = 14

Might be a little low, but perhaps the USN factors in Britain not being a probable opponent, and keeping a few ships on the West Coast eyeing the IJN beadily.

So the battlefield will contain the following combatants: -
BB = 133
BC = 60
B = 68 (but not for long)
AC = 52 (life expectancy even kower than a pre-dread).

The most interesting aspect for me will be figuring out how Seymour will try (fail) to signal to that lot!

 

[CaptainCalvert]

The most interesting aspect for me will be figuring out how Seymour will try (fail) to signal to that lot!

How about:
"See that smoke?"
"Yes, admiral".
"Go there and sink whatever is causing it".

That should work.

 

[Fulano]

How realistic do you want this battle to be? I could actually see the Pacific Ocean seeing some action if Operation Unthinkable, or some variant of it, is executed in the Cold War era.
With some PODs after the WW2 and the Colonial Wars, I could actually see an alliance of the Soviets + China + India + South Africa + Southeast Asia ex-colonies against an alliance of USA + Canada + Western Europe + Australia + New Zealand + South America countries. All of their navies fighting in the Pacific, at the same time.

 

[Helaena I Targaryen]

How realistic do you want this battle to be? I could actually see the Pacific Ocean seeing some action if Operation Unthinkable, or some variant of it, is executed in the Cold War era.
With some PODs after the WW2 and the Colonial Wars, I could actually see an alliance of the Soviets + China + India + South Africa + Southeast Asia ex-colonies against an alliance of USA + Canada + Western Europe + Australia + New Zealand + South America countries. All of their navies fighting in the Pacific, at the same time.

Everyone on the Soviet-Chinese-Indian side (the nations that actually matter) will have pretty mid navies at best. The vast majority of their ships will also be short-ranged defensive craft, lacking the range to operate in the Pacific.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Too bad this is limited to after the start of WW1. Else you could play some serious games to get massive fleets of pre-dreadnoughts slugging it out. If you could get France and Germany to bury the hatchet (Not in each other's heads), you could team them up against the RN and get a huge battle with, depending on the exact year, a total of around 80 pre-dreadnoughts, plus armored cruisers.

 

[MKD]

Surely some form of Jutland on steroids with both teams basically slugging it out until one man is left standing nautical rocky stylee?

 

[Brak]

Too bad this is limited to after the start of WW1. Else you could play some serious games to get massive fleets of pre-dreadnoughts slugging it out. If you could get France and Germany to bury the hatchet (Not in each other's heads), you could team them up against the RN and get a huge battle with, depending on the exact year, a total of around 80 pre-dreadnoughts, plus armored cruisers.

Well, I just put this as a framework, just to keep it post-1900. But if you have any post 1900 scenarios, they are welcome too.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Well, I just put this as a framework, just to keep it post-1900. But if you have any post 1900 scenarios, they are welcome too.

Hm. It might take some doing, but I was thinking having the Fashoda incident go hot. Now, France's navy is pretty hopeless at the time, so I think they'd need to start teaming up with others.

Perhaps rather than Fashoda going hot, it instead thoroughly humiliates France, perhaps with Germany offering support to France, thus helping to warm relations. France remains outraged, and begins building an alliance with an eye to bringing the UK down a peg, so they manage to work together with Russia and Germany. Somehow it goes hot, and then we have the French, German and Russian fleets toeing off against the RN. If this happens before Fisher's great purge, or butterflies it, you could see an absolutely massive fleet action, that would doubtless be extremely bloody.

 

[Driftless]

The Dogger Bank incident escalates out of control quickly. Instead of British fishing boats getting shot up, say some VIP or Royal personage yacht gets shot up and the nearest RN ship comes to pick up survivors and gets fired on. Cooler heads do NOT prevail and a running battle commences

 

[Cryhavoc101]

High Seas fleet sorties in Oct 1918 (no or much reduced mutiny) at or near full strength

The Grand fleet is joined by all 10 of the QEs and Rs as well as both Renown and Repulse as well as USN (Nevada and Pennsylvania classes) and IJN (The 4 Kongos) Squadrons and improved naval airpower providing better recon and communication

The Germans have still not figured out how the British are always one step ahead (Room 40 which also gave advanced warning of a potential sortie weeks in advance) find themselves running slap bang into the Grand fleet but this time sunset is too far away to allow them to disengage.

What follows is a massive clash of Dreadnought Battleships and Battlecruisers.