AHC: Create A Danish Colonial Empire Comparable to Benelux

[AltoRegnant]

Otl, the scandinavian nations never really had colonial empires. Sweden I get considering it had a Russia and a PLC and a Prussia-- point being Sweden had its hands full as a land empire and didn't need to expand overseas. But Denmark-Norway? Their biggest threat was Sweden itself, as well as Prussia (but i think they had better relations there). Maybe England if they make serious diplomatic screwups. But if we look at other comparable nations like the Netherlands or Portugal, while they weren't titans, they certainly got a bigger share than Denmark, with Brazil, Angola and Mozambique for portugal, and the Dutch got Indonesia while little brother belgium claimed the Kongo. Sure, Denmark had Greenland and some islands, but that's nothing, even accounting for the tiny state.

So your goal is to give Denmark-Norway a more powerful colonial empire. Or hell, save the bloody Kalmar Union and spread the vikings all over the place. Use any POD you want

 

[Beacon]

I mean, OTL has given us an example where Iceland, which would qualify as one of the main colonies of Denmark-Norway, made the British (the former greatest empire in the world) submit to them. I don't know what else you could want to be honest.

The main idea here would be to have a big empire, and one way to do that would be to start an earlier settlement in the Americas during the viking age, but if we do that then those settlements will develop their own culture over time and not qualify as colonies anymore, especially since there is no way for the rulers of the scandinavian nations to enforce their will across the sea.

 

[Driftless]

Earlier push for sugar/coffee trade in the Caribbean? Get a toe hold on Barbados as well as the Danish V.I, and manage not to alienate the British...

 

[Orcot]

alternativly when the Normans where offerend land to settle in stead of getting offered " the Normandy region" they got everything between the mouths of the Seine and the Rine river. Somehow hanze trade kept the culture alive now imagen that the climate get's considerable colder right afther the big plague hit western europe and the Benelux is simply a part of scandinavia.

 

[AltoRegnant]

alternativly when the Normans where offerend land to settle in stead of getting offered " the Normandy region" they got everything between the mouths of the Seine and the Rine river. Somehow hanze trade kept the culture alive now imagen that the climate get's considerable colder right afther the big plague hit western europe and the Benelux is simply a part of scandinavia.

Oh god dutch engineering combined with vikings

 

[Old1812]

Could the Danes have acquired a larger chunk of Asia, beyond their toehold of Danish India?

 

[Sevarics]

I mean I started this with my Markland TL that is on hiatus

 

[P L Richards]

Unless you go early and start with an expanded Viking Age or a more successful Union of Kalmar, both of which would result in a rather different Europe, you run into problems. If you have Denmark mixing with the Big Boys of colonial empires, say a POD of 1520 or later, you have a Denmark that, while it certainly has a seafaring tradition, and has the sailors, both from Denmark and from Norway, isn't rich enough and doesn't have a large enough population to develop a much larger empire than in OTL. True, better luck would help - fleets getting lost by storms, or by attack from foreign powers or from piracy, or merchant companies going bankrupt, mishaps which larger powers like Spain or England could more easily absorb, seemed to cause serious problems for Denmark.

But a small suggestion: supposing Willem Usselincx and Peter Minuit, when they fall out with the Dutch West India Company, offer their services to Denmark rather than Sweden? It's a New Denmark, not New Sweden, that is established on the Delaware? The colony somehow survives and grows; either the Dutch from New Nederland don't take it in 1655, or if they do Denmark sends a force and reclaims it? There's no conflict with the British in North America at this time; it's still there and growing slowly in the 18th century. Would probably get a fair bit of German settlement to augment the Danes and Norwegians there, as well as some Huguenots. The basis of a growing empire?

There are also some extra islands in the Caribbean which Denmark could take and with luck hold permanently, e.g. Vieques (Crab Island), possibly Tobago.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Unless you go early and start with an expanded Viking Age or a more successful Union of Kalmar, both of which would result in a rather different Europe, you run into problems. If you have Denmark mixing with the Big Boys of colonial empires, say a POD of 1520 or later, you have a Denmark that, while it certainly has a seafaring tradition, and has the sailors, both from Denmark and from Norway, isn't rich enough and doesn't have a large enough population to develop a much larger empire than in OTL. True, better luck would help - fleets getting lost by storms, or by attack from foreign powers or from piracy, or merchant companies going bankrupt, mishaps which larger powers like Spain or England could more easily absorb, seemed to cause serious problems for Denmark.

But a small suggestion: supposing Willem Usselincx and Peter Minuit, when they fall out with the Dutch West India Company, offer their services to Denmark rather than Sweden? It's a New Denmark, not New Sweden, that is established on the Delaware? The colony somehow survives and grows; either the Dutch from New Nederland don't take it in 1655, or if they do Denmark sends a force and reclaims it? There's no conflict with the British in North America at this time; it's still there and growing slowly in the 18th century. Would probably get a fair bit of German settlement to augment the Danes and Norwegians there, as well as some Huguenots. The basis of a growing empire?

There are also some extra islands in the Caribbean which Denmark could take and with luck hold permanently, e.g. Vieques (Crab Island), possibly Tobago.

I imagine this scenario could see denmark becoming something like what Scotland was before James I came to the Throne of England. England/Britain wants it to piss off or be annexed into England, and France, wary of the English, would ally with it as a means of a balance of power. Especially if Danish acceptance of heugonots brings strong cultural ties.

Danish Delaware and Caribbean... they'd want an african port, probably along the cape of good hope given where the dutch and even england settled otl, which opens up asia. Danish Burma, perhaps?

 

[Orcot]

would madagascar be a good Colony? it's near some very inportant trade routes and they could trade with south africa (if dutch/danes relations are good)

 

[AltoRegnant]

would madagascar be a good Colony? it's near some very inportant trade routes and they could trade with south africa (if dutch/danes relations are good)

Personally I'd see it sooner circumventing the Dutch, as they and Denmark would be each other's biggest rivals since Portugal would still fall off the world stage, and the other colonizers would completely dominate the small kingdoms

 

[Orcot]

would you see them settling Patagonia to get the street connecting the atlantic and the pacific. Or imagen that spain never established the land route between accapulco and veracruz. honnestly especialy afther the britisch become a mayor player and start harrasing south africa I could the little nations (Portugal, denemark low countries) establish a defensive pact against spain france and england

 

[AltoRegnant]

would you see them settling Patagonia to get the street connecting the atlantic and the pacific. Or imagen that spain never established the land route between accapulco and veracruz. honnestly especialy afther the britisch become a mayor player and start harrasing south africa I could the little nations (Portugal, denemark low countries) establish a defensive pact against spain france and england

That depends heavily on when they get there, and considering the records for France and Spain, that pact would mean little a lot of the time. Easier to just buddy up to them, hence my idea for a Franco/Danish alliance

 

[AltoRegnant]

If we assume Denmark allies with France, what could we see happen to english politics? Would they focus on buddying up with Austria/Prussia, or value sweden more?

 

[AltoRegnant]

What could this mean for England? With France in the north and Denmark in the middle, England is left with the south of its north american colony of otl, which while the best economic situation (as a colony) doesnt have the population growth of the colonies otl, which likely means a lot of internal strife.

 

[P L Richards]

If we assume Denmark allies with France, what could we see happen to english politics? Would they focus on buddying up with Austria/Prussia, or value sweden more?

Thinking about this, although a Danish-French alliance could be beneficial in some ways, e.g. French settlements and Danish factories in India could increase trade with each other, to mutual benefit, it would undoubtedly lead to conflict with England/Britain. In OTL Denmark didn't have a war with Britain until the Napoleonic wars. But earlier conflicts would probably go badly for Denmark overseas. France will support her ally in Europe, but is likely unable or unwilling to do much to help on other continents. Denmark is in danger of losing islands in the Caribbean and territory in America, Africa and India to Britain. It could end up with a smaller overseas empire than in OTL. Denmark seemed to do best when it could remain neutral and take trade from warring parties.

If there is a Franco-Danish alliance, then I think Britain will pursue much closer relations with Sweden. They will need them to help keep access to the Baltic open.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Thinking about this, although a Danish-French alliance could be beneficial in some ways, e.g. French settlements and Danish factories in India could increase trade with each other, to mutual benefit, it would undoubtedly lead to conflict with England/Britain. In OTL Denmark didn't have a war with Britain until the Napoleonic wars. But earlier conflicts would probably go badly for Denmark overseas. France will support her ally in Europe, but is likely unable or unwilling to do much to help on other continents. Denmark is in danger of losing islands in the Caribbean and territory in America, Africa and India to Britain. It could end up with a smaller overseas empire than in OTL. Denmark seemed to do best when it could remain neutral and take trade from warring parties.

If there is a Franco-Danish alliance, then I think Britain will pursue much closer relations with Sweden. They will need them to help keep access to the Baltic open.

I see your point, but if England's colonies are less populated like I think they would be, and they don't focus on them till ttl's 7 years war, I could also see England struggling. France, Denmark, and Spain all had powerful navies with which to challenge England-provided they coordinate appropriately

 

[Sian]

the issue is that just as the Age of colonialism rolled around, Denmark entered a centuries-long decline with equal amounts of poor/ill suited rulers (or being strong at things that weren't the most relevant at the time) and flat out poor luck, while their arch-rival Sweden was in the ascendancy with very strong rulers which had massive strengths in the needed areas. This kept demanding a lot of focus both in manpower, money and time commitment which then couldn't be focused elsewhere ... tweak this and you could well have a Denmark-Norway that was much more able to engage in the colonial game

 

[Gabingston]

would you see them settling Patagonia to get the street connecting the atlantic and the pacific. Or imagen that spain never established the land route between accapulco and veracruz. honnestly especialy afther the britisch become a mayor player and start harrasing south africa I could the little nations (Portugal, denemark low countries) establish a defensive pact against spain france and england

Norway (then under Danish rule)

Tierra Del Fuego

Yeah, I could see Scandinavians colonizing Patagonia.

 

[Cryptic]

I am thinking...… Upon hearing of the success of Columbus, Danes move fast:

- Danish presence is re established on Greenland with in a matter of years.
- Danes then jump to Larbador (sp), Nova Scotia and Newfoundland ahead of the British and the French.
- They don't start there, but move into the Northwest territories as well.

Sure, the lose some ground to the more numerous and more industrialized French and British, but they retain large portions of seaboard Canada as colonies. Meanwhile, the Danes also move east.....

- Danish traders set up a series of forts and associated claims in arctic Russia (IOTL, Norway kept a presence in the area for a while). The Danes, however, are there to stay. Indigenous tribes are converted to Lutheranism and Danish cultural elements are instilled. The culturally Slavic and religiously eastern Orthodox Russians pitch a fit at the Danish incursions in their vague zone of interest.

- But... the Danish forts and Scandavianfied indigenous locals cannot truly be reached by over land routes. Meanwhile the efficient Danish navy controls the arctic sea access from Norway. Though the Russians gradually roll back some Danish arctic claims, most of the colonies survive.