AHC: Communism without personality-cults

[overoceans]

How can you create a world where Communist states are far less inclined to venerate their leaders(Lenin being only the oldest and most notorious example)? It does seem strange that a political philosophy built on the notion of larger material forces pushing history forward would so readily fall into veritably worshiping particular individuals.

FWIW, as bad as they otherwise were, my understanding is that the Khmer Rouge were less inclined than other Communist regimes to glorify their leaders. I believe it wasn't even widely known what Pol Pot looked like.

 

[CountDVB]

How can you create a world where Communist states are far less inclined to venerate their leaders(Lenin being only the oldest and most notorious example)? It does seem strange that a political philosophy built on the notion of larger material forces pushing history forward would so readily fall into veritably worshiping particular individuals.

FWIW, as bad as they otherwise were, my understanding is that the Khmer Rouge were less inclined than other Communist regimes to glorify their leaders. I believe it wasn't even widely known what Pol Pot looked like.

The fact is that most “communist” states were formerly autocratic and somewhat reactionary states prior to the Revolution, so the tendency toward cults of personality were there for the most part. Blaming communism for that doesn’t make sense.

Russia with the Tsar, China with their emperor and so on and so forth.

Presumably, you would need to get into a world where communism would be successfully implemented in the locations that Marx figured would it would happen.

 

[Fries]

The fact is that most “communist” states were formerly autocratic and somewhat reactionary states prior to the Revolution, so the tendency toward cults of personality were there for the most part. Blaming communism for that doesn’t make sense.

Russia with the Tsar, China with their emperor and so on and so forth.

Presumably, you would need to get into a world where communism would be successfully implemented in the locations that Marx figured would it would happen.

Honestly, this.

Stalin hated his cult of personality (as did Lenin), yet it was kept around because Russian society (and to that effect society within the former Russian Empire as a whole) gravitated towards charismatic strongmen. IIRC he even tried to implement democratic reforms around elections to the Supreme Soviet to limit his own power but this was blocked by members of the Supreme Soviet and the Politburo --- now, I'm not saying there was a conspiracy...

To have the best chance of Marxian socialism not centering around images of strongmen you'd need it to begin in a country without strongmen; i.e. anywhere but Russia, China, or Germany. I'd say the best places are France, the UK, and the United States, but likely none of these would be Marxist-Leninist movements. I'd say the best bet to keep the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist international worldview while also limiting strongmen is to, ironically, have a stronger Stalin to limit his own power and help destroy his own cult of personality, which he quite famously despised.

(Also... I'm not going to say OP shouldn't call the Khmer Rouge a communist movement, but OP shouldn't call the Khmer Rouge a communist movement.)

 

[overoceans]

(Also... I'm not going to say OP shouldn't call the Khmer Rouge a communist movement, but OP shouldn't call the Khmer Rouge a communist movement.)

But what basis is there for excluding the Khmer Rouge, that wouldn't also exclude Stalin or Mao?

 

[Lalli]

But what basis is there for excluding the Khmer Rouge, that wouldn't also exclude Stalin or Mao?

Khmer Rouge were such extreme from other communist groups that them hardly can evne counted as communists. They were bit similar as ISIS which has not much if anything similar with Islam.

I agree with one post here that problem is that communist major nations were ones where has always been strong cult of personality. In Russia tsars were almost as worshipped as God and probably every tsar since Peter the Great was statues and after many had named cities and probably there was even small villages named after tsars.

And in China emperors were historically sacred people. Not sure were they seen as gods as Japanese saw their emperors until end of WW2.

Had Castro ever such cult of personality?

I guess that best would be start communist revolution in Germany, Britain or USA like Marx had predicted that to happen. Them have not so strong historic cult of personality and these might keep some democratic elements to avoid someone getting such things like Lenin, Stalin and Mao did.

 

[overoceans]

Khmer Rouge were such extreme from other communist groups that them hardly can evne counted as communists. They were bit similar as ISIS which has not much if anything similar with Islam.

Well, I dunno. Being an extreme form of X is not neccessarily the same thing as being Not X. Apartheid South Africa was an extreme form of racism. And it WAS, indeed, racism.

 

[Lalli]

Well, I dunno. Being an extreme form of X is not neccessarily the same thing as being Not X. Apartheid South Africa was an extreme form of racism. And it WAS, indeed, racism.

I mean that Khmer Rouge had not really much if anything similar with communisml Well, any major communist nation didn't follow Marx's teachings very closely, but KR hadn't anything common even with Leninism and very few with Stalinism and Maoism.

 

[overoceans]

I mean that Khmer Rouge had not really much if anything similar with communisml Well, any major communist nation didn't follow Marx's teachings very closely, but KR hadn't anything common even with Leninism and very few with Stalinism and Maoism.

Well, I THINK they had the vanguardism of Lenin(all those Paris-educated intellectuals), and they pretty clearly had the agrarianism of Mao.

Stalinism is a tougher label to hang on them, since the exact meaning of that concept has never been entirely clear to me. In the everyday sense of "kiling a lot of people in the name of left-wing politics", they absolutely qualified.

 

[Fries]

But what basis is there for excluding the Khmer Rouge, that wouldn't also exclude Stalin or Mao?

The Khmer Rouge was, for a not-insignificant period of time, backed by the CIA and Pol Pot admitted that he didn't study or even read a lick of Marxist, let alone Leninist or Maoist, theory. It's like a fascist trying to claim they're a libertarian without having even attempted to read Locke.

 

[overoceans]

The Khmer Rouge was, for a not-insignificant period of time, backed by the CIA and Pol Pot admitted that he didn't study or even read a lick of Marxist, let alone Leninist or Maoist, theory. It's like a fascist trying to claim they're a libertarian without having even attempted to read Locke.

Well, the Khmer Rouge was also backed by Communist China during the same period that they were backed by the US. And, in fact, China itself was allied with the US, going back to the days when Mao was still alive.

And even if Pol Pot never read marxism, I'm pretty sure that Khieu Samphan did, as can be surmised from his doctoral thesis.

Plus, I believe the Khmer Rouge promoted the abolition of private property, which is, at any rate, not a capitalist thing to do.

 

[Fries]

Well, the Khmer Rouge was also backed by Communist China during the same period that they were backed by the US. And, in fact, China itself was allied with the US, going back to the days when Mao was still alive.

And even if Pol Pot never read marxism, I'm pretty sure that Khieu Samphan did, as can be surmised from his doctoral thesis.

Plus, I believe the Khmer Rouge promoted the abolition of private property, which is, at any rate, not a capitalist thing to do.

China wasn't allied with the US. What? China and the US have always been enemies --- it's the natural way geopolitics work.

I admit I haven't gone too in-depth on Khieu Samphan, but either way Pot had much more influence over the Khmer Rouge's affairs than Samphan.

And, yeah, it's not a capitalist thing. But anti-capitalist =! socialist; fascism is anti-capitalist and obviously not socialist, and so are a number of environmentalist groups and organizations that aren't explicitly socialist.

 

[overoceans]

China wasn't allied with the US. What? China and the US have always been enemies --- it's the natural way geopolitics work

Well, they weren't allies in the NATO sense, but yeah, they both supported the same side in Angola, and worked together to arm the Khmer Rouge. China even participated in the US-led boycott of the Moscow Olympics in 1980.

 

[Maeglin]

The Cult of Lenin was Stalin's idea. Of course it was - Stalin had trained as an Orthodox Priest, and understood the medieval mindset (put the saint's relics on display!) far better than an urban intellectual like Lenin. Lenin just wanted to be buried next to his mother.

What you need here is a greater emphasis on collective leadership. Simply having leaders who don't have a personality (Honecker in the GDR) isn't enough - they'll still try something to bolster their own power.

 

[Maeglin]

Anyway, the major issue with Pol Pot at the intellectual level is that he was literally trying to recreate the glorious Middle Ages. That's about as far from technophilic Marxism as one can get.

 

[Nazi Space Spy]

Pol Pot actually did develop a personality cult, it was just too late to widely implement it.

 

[General Tirpitz]

China wasn't allied with the US. What? China and the US have always been enemies --- it's the natural way geopolitics work.

China and the US were semi-allies during the late-1970's and 1980's because of the Soviet threat. The term used was a friend more than an ally though, as "ally" has specific policy implications. There was cooperation in some foreign policy questions as the US and China both had interest in blocking Soviet influence. In addition, you had China buying weapons from the US and Western Europe. You can find even comments from the period where US officials talk how China modernising its armed forces will benefit the US geopolitically.

Probably the wildest aspect of this from the modern perspective is this story of Grumman helping China to develop jet fighters in the 1980's, including tests done on prototypes in the US.

Remembering The Time Grumman Helped Craft A Modern Fighter For China

The brief thaw in America’s relations with China in the 1980s yielded this surprising hybrid fighter program led by Grumman.

www.thedrive.com

 

[tus3]

China wasn't allied with the US. What? China and the US have always been enemies --- it's the natural way geopolitics work.

Not according to Enver Hoxa. One of the reasons of the Sino-Albanian split was that he saw the Chinese as having 'tactically allied' with the USA.

 

[Workable Goblin]

China wasn't allied with the US. What? China and the US have always been enemies --- it's the natural way geopolitics work.

They absolutely were not, as pointed out by General Tirpitz. Another wild example (from a modern perspective) is that China and the United States ran spy bases together in Xinjiang to record information on Soviet nuclear and missile tests in Central Asia, which information was then shared between them. If you go back far enough, you also get into World War II (the United States very definitely was not enemies with China then).

 

[brunohusker]

The fact is that most “communist” states were formerly autocratic and somewhat reactionary states prior to the Revolution, so the tendency toward cults of personality were there for the most part. Blaming communism for that doesn’t make sense.

Russia with the Tsar, China with their emperor and so on and so forth.

Presumably, you would need to get into a world where communism would be successfully implemented in the locations that Marx figured would it would happen.

So would communism as Marx thought, work better in formerly Democratic societies? I do agree most states who’ve had that government have been autocratic or corrupt democracies and thus strongmen take over and even if they do well like say Cuba, they still have a Castro cult.

 

[Fries]

I stand corrected on the whole US-China relationship thing.