So I've been reading Legacy of Ashes, if you aren't familiar it's about the history/failures of the CIA and how little intelligence they actually manage to gather. One of Weiner's primary points is that the CIA never manages to establish reliable spy cells in any of its targets. I was wondering what missed opportunities there might have been. What potentially well connected and powerful figures in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Iran, even Albania could the CIA persuade, trick, blackmail, or bribe into giving information?
AHC: CIA Infiltration
- Thread starter Chillvillain
- Start date
Izetbegović (the first president of Bosnia) was showing separatist tendencies since the 1970s, so maybe the CIA could work with him in Yugoslavia.
I’m sure there were a lot of missed opportunities, but Holy Cow—
And the CIA did some mean, stupid, shortsighted stuff like helping to overthrow the Prime Minister of Iran back in the 1950s and putting in the Shah.
But honest, I think they were more of the reality-oriented, rational side of U.S. foreign policy during the Cold War days. They seemed to understand that propping up a dictator would work against our interest, not in our favor. And that day of reckoning would likely come sooner rather than later.
PS I don’t mean to run down the book which I’ve never read.
Not to say that Legacy of Ashes is entirely untrustworthy or incorrect, but it is not uncontroversial and has been criticized for lack of objectivity and being flimsily researched, not only by the CIA but also by historians and academics. Like I said, I don't mean to dismiss the book summarily, but only to say that it isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all when it comes to the history of the CIA
(tbh I feel like this is similar to many other history books that are written by journalists instead of academic historians)
(tbh I feel like this is similar to many other history books that are written by journalists instead of academic historians)
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I've read LoA. It's pretty intetesting, but a bit of a grab-bag, just kinda throws a bunch of people and events at you in chronological order, without much overarching analysis, besides "the CIA is pretty stupid and evil."
And when I once tried to confirm a particular story from the book(I think about the CIA helping the South Africans to nab Mandela), the main article that came up was a NYT article by Weiner himself. So I got the impression that the book was, at least partly, alot of his journalistic pieces strung together.
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but on the other hand,
Wouldn’t journalists be more nimble as far as holding a lot of different facts in their head, and less likely to be married to one big over-arcing theory?
PS I do understand this guy is anti-CIA.
I don't think that's true. Academic study of history, by any scholar who's worth their salt, anyway, proceeds from what can be found in the sources. "Over-arcing theories" aren't really very big in history
That said, we're getting a bit off-topic here
I believe in multiple sources, as I suspect you do, too!
Historians have big projects (generally). Journalists have many more total projects. And hopefully both can learn to write eminently readable chapters. 😇 And avoid talking down to their readers, that one’s important!
Okay.
Have it your way.
Kicked for a week.
BTW: If you are looking to get Banned, just say so. Save us all a lot of time
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
I was going to just kick you for being a dipshit, but I'm 80% sure you've been banned before, so let's just skip straight to that.
BACK TO TOPIC
the truth is somewhere in Middle
The CIA made considerable success and Blunders
Like Program Oxcar what let to A-12 and SR-71 Spy planes
or CORONA spy satellites and Project Azorian, were CIA salvage a sunken Soviet submarine from 5 km deep ocean !
or the brilliant Operation Argo were CIA agents disguise as Film Crew get in Iran and out with US citizen.
but on other side we have
Assassination on foreign head of states, like failures attempts on Fidel Castro, until Richard Nixon order CIA to stop and forbid any other attempts.
Project MK ULTRA were CIA experimented with Mind Control in all it forms and tested this on humans,
or Cyborg Cat a house cat operated to carry listening system and it transmitter ended in total failure...
Now to to establish reliable spy cells, is extrem hard, special if agent has to go in foreign nation
Not only has he/she talk native tongue, but also life the culture of that nation to blend in and not getting in attention by the authorities.
The CIA and KGB had there debacle in this, but not East Germany secret service !
Why ? because Germany was divided into West (NATO) and East (Soviet)
So was able The Hauptverwaltung Aufklärung was able to train their agents to blend in west German society.
So good that they manage the infiltration of NATO, or even stole hardware or Top secret files and bring them to east Germany
there is very good TV show about this called "Deutschland 83"
the truth is somewhere in Middle
The CIA made considerable success and Blunders
Like Program Oxcar what let to A-12 and SR-71 Spy planes
or CORONA spy satellites and Project Azorian, were CIA salvage a sunken Soviet submarine from 5 km deep ocean !
or the brilliant Operation Argo were CIA agents disguise as Film Crew get in Iran and out with US citizen.
but on other side we have
Assassination on foreign head of states, like failures attempts on Fidel Castro, until Richard Nixon order CIA to stop and forbid any other attempts.
Project MK ULTRA were CIA experimented with Mind Control in all it forms and tested this on humans,
or Cyborg Cat a house cat operated to carry listening system and it transmitter ended in total failure...
Now to to establish reliable spy cells, is extrem hard, special if agent has to go in foreign nation
Not only has he/she talk native tongue, but also life the culture of that nation to blend in and not getting in attention by the authorities.
The CIA and KGB had there debacle in this, but not East Germany secret service !
Why ? because Germany was divided into West (NATO) and East (Soviet)
So was able The Hauptverwaltung Aufklärung was able to train their agents to blend in west German society.
So good that they manage the infiltration of NATO, or even stole hardware or Top secret files and bring them to east Germany
there is very good TV show about this called "Deutschland 83"
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Azorian/Jennifer was actually one of the CIA's biggest blunders and a major failure. In '68 the Navy found K-129 with a remote controlled mini sub from USS Halibut. The Navy spent a few months testing a way for Halibut's minisubs to cut into K-129 and get out the code books, comm equipment and some electronics, they didn't care about the rest as the Golf class sub was obsolescent in 1968, so was its weapons, they figured they'd have it in a few months and a low budget as they were already paying for Halibut anyways. The CIA then proposed Azorian to get the whole sub, and the Navy said that it wouldn't work, the sub would break up and they might lose the valuable stuff on the way, and it would take years and cost a fortune. Lo and behold Azorian doesn't launch until 1974, and when they try and salvage the sub, it breaks up and they only get a piece of it, which incidentally had no useful intelligence on board and all the useful stuff was scattered far and wide. And even if it had worked, it would have cost a fortune and gotten the intelligence 5-6 years after the navy would have, because the CIA forbid them from going in first to collect it to avoid sharing the glory. It was a disaster
By contrast Electric Kitty wasn't a complete failure, it was an R&D project that produced a fully functional prototype, so at worst a partial failure, as I doubt they just burned all the research and development data after its cancellation
There was the tunnel under the lines into East Berlin and the Soviets knew from DAY ONE since they had an asset in the meeting discussing it.
Azorian was a dumb idea from the start why did we need to know soviet secrets of that type?
In general I am a skeptic and do not trust the intelligence community.