AHC: by 1700 make Poland a great power comparable to France

[marcinL]

AHC: with the POD after 01.01.1386 (the year of the marriage between Jagiełło and Jadwiga of Poland) make Poland (with Lithuania, of course) in 1700 a great power comparable in population, military, diplomatic and economic might to France, with the condition that its land area cannot further grow by more than 20%.

Edit: no further unions

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

OTL political system of Poland strongly hindered economic development and prevented Poland's rise to the rank of a Great Power.

One needs to do something to prevent the total dominance of nobility in Polish politics and strengthen the position of cities or peasants (or both)

 

[marcinL]

OTL political system of Poland strongly hindered economic development and prevented Poland's rise to the rank of a Great Power.

One needs to do something to prevent the total dominance of nobility in Polish politics and strengthen the position of cities or peasants (or both)

The good beginning would be Jagiełło and Jadwiga having a male heir

 

[Ivan Lupo]

The Teutonic Knights need to be crushed thoroughly, with East Prussia fully annexed and absorbed into Poland and Lithuania. This can happen in the 15th century. That's step one in my opinion. Kill Prussian sovereignity in the cradle.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

No Polish-Lithuanian Union at all costs. Lithuania held Poland back and forced it to have a decentralized form of government and put it under Imperial Sweden's and Russia's radar by having borders with the two.

Instead have a ATL Polish-Czech Union with a capital in Krakow that is more immersed in HRE politics and westward focused. Bring in German immigrants to help facilitate economic development. Crush the Teutonic Order, confiscate Church lands and go Protestant, and have the Monarchy become the largest/wealthiest landowner to solidify it's power to lower it's reliance on the nobility.

Keep it out of wars or at least on the winning sides so it has higher population growth.

Give it a couple ATL "Great Men" as well for science and administration.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Just for clarity’s sake, 20 percent from when? Whenever the POD is? From it’s greatest extent? From 1386? Do personal unions count if they aren’t integrated?

 

[marcinL]

Just for clarity’s sake, 20 percent from when? Whenever the POD is? From it’s greatest extent? From 1386? Do personal unions count if they aren’t integrated?

From 1386. I wasnt clear in the OP, but I didnt want any more unions

 

[The Undead Martyr]

Have Hedwig Jagellion survive, and marry Frederick II of Brandenburg. Both he and his father were fairly capable, but more importantly a surviving royal dynasty with an independent power base is a good nucleus for centralizing royal authority. As a prince elector, they also have great influence in the empire, and Brandenburg and Polish claims reinforce vis a vis Pomerania.

 

[AsukaEMP]

AHC: with the POD after 01.01.1386 (the year of the marriage between Jagiełło and Jadwiga of Poland) make Poland (with Lithuania, of course) in 1700 a great power comparable in population, military, diplomatic and economic might to France, with the condition that its land area cannot further grow by more than 20%.

From 1386. I wasnt clear in the OP, but I didnt want any more unions

This is basically impossible, you're asking to more than double the 1700CE population without annexing any significant territories. In a rural society the agricultural output of the land decided how big the population was, anything more just leads to famines that balance it out eventually. The only room left to grow is having more agriculture in Ukraine, but even that wouldn't be enough by 1700. Which means controlling both the Cossacks and somehow pacifying all tribes to the south and the east of Ukraine.

 

[RedSword12]

The Teutonic Knights need to be crushed thoroughly, with East Prussia fully annexed and absorbed into Poland and Lithuania. This can happen in the 15th century. That's step one in my opinion. Kill Prussian sovereignity in the cradle.

Preposterous. It would do nothing to solve Poland's terrible system of government. Between nipping Prussian sovereignty in the bud and solving Poland's internal problems, the latter is far, far more important. If Poland solved its systemic problems, that likely would be enough to cancel Prussian sovereignty to begin with. More than any foreign power, it was Poland's own institutional flaws that caused the partitions.

 

[marcinL]

This is basically impossible, you're asking to more than double the 1700CE population without annexing any significant territories. In a rural society the agricultural output of the land decided how big the population was, anything more just leads to famines that balance it out eventually. The only room left to grow is having more agriculture in Ukraine, but even that wouldn't be enough by 1700. Which means controlling both the Cossacks and somehow pacifying all tribes to the south and the east of Ukraine.

OTL 1700 PLC was smaller than the starting territory, and in its last fifty years suffered multiple wars leading to loss of population. The starting territory is about 1 million square kilometers,which is twice the territory of France or 50% more than territory of HRE in 1700, both of which had more than 20 million people. So that Poland would have only half of the population density of France.

A well governed Poland would not have Cossacks at all, their functions would be carried by regular army.

 

[marcinL]

Have Hedwig Jagellion survive, and marry Frederick II of Brandenburg. Both he and his father were fairly capable, but more importantly a surviving royal dynasty with an independent power base is a good nucleus for centralizing royal authority. As a prince elector, they also have great influence in the empire, and Brandenburg and Polish claims reinforce vis a vis Pomerania.

As long as he doesnt treat Poland as a money bag

 

[Carter I'm Yog]

A well governed Poland would not have Cossacks at all, their functions would be carried by regular army.

Trying to hold what is known today as Ukraine without Cossacks in the 14-15th centuries would be a fiscal sinkhole, if not total disaster. Besides, Cossack, being general outsiders, can easily be paid to launch a coup. Useful for a centralizing monarch who wants to do away with pesky nobles.

 

[Lalli]

Keep king's position strong and not Libertum Veto for members of Sejm. Furthermore try find a way make Poland-Lithuania more centralised and make some works on economy. Even better if you can expand Poland to Russia during Time of Troubles and so Russia would remain much weaker.

And keep close relationships with Austria so it is ratherly ally not potential enemy.

 

[Arkenfolm]

This is basically impossible, you're asking to more than double the 1700CE population without annexing any significant territories. In a rural society the agricultural output of the land decided how big the population was, anything more just leads to famines that balance it out eventually. The only room left to grow is having more agriculture in Ukraine, but even that wouldn't be enough by 1700. Which means controlling both the Cossacks and somehow pacifying all tribes to the south and the east of Ukraine.

Poland-Lithuania was a great exporter of grain. Additional clearances of forests and swamps as well as more efficient agriculture would be enough to increase the population.

 

[marcinL]

Trying to hold what is known today as Ukraine without Cossacks in the 14-15th centuries would be a fiscal sinkhole, if not total disaster. Besides, Cossack, being general outsiders, can easily be paid to launch a coup. Useful for a centralizing monarch who wants to do away with pesky nobles.

Cossacks didnt exist in 14-15 century, and the began being hired by the state only in late 16 century. Poland for defence of its southeastern border used a (small) standing force

 

[Carter I'm Yog]

Cossacks didnt exist in 14-15 century, and the began being hired by the state only in late 16 century. Poland for defence of its southeastern border used a (small) standing force

I thought the Cossacks originated from that so-called standing force of tribes once affiliated with the Golden Horde, so I didn't distinguish between the two. If I messed up, my bad in advance.

 

[Jürgen]

France became a great power through having a large population, that population being densely populated and by having a strong centralized state. The only reason that modern Poland have a higher population density than France is because of agricultural improvements many which couldn’t arrive much earlier, if we go back to 1700 Poland had a 25% population density of France.

To make Poland the equivalent of OTL France in 1700 would demand a complete re-engineering of European history from a much earlier introduction of potatoes (we talk about pre-Columbus spread) and spread of red clover from at least the 14th century to radical change medieval Polish society. I wouldn’t even know where to start.

 

[Wesley_Lewt]

We can do this with a late POD

Poland comes out on top in the Time of Troubles.

The Polish force that takes Moscow is paid as a priority and takes the Kremlin as well as the city. Poish forces have more success generally.

Sweden has more initial success in this TL, aiming higher and tying up Russia more, however Gustav Adolph as well as his brother (killed at Pskov OTL) die on campaign getting Sweden into dynastic trouble.

 

[marcinL]

France became a great power through having a large population, that population being densely populated and by having a strong centralized state. The only reason that modern Poland have a higher population density than France is because of agricultural improvements many which couldn’t arrive much earlier, if we go back to 1700 Poland had a 25% population density of France.

To make Poland the equivalent of OTL France in 1700 would demand a complete re-engineering of European history from a much earlier introduction of potatoes (we talk about pre-Columbus spread) and spread of red clover from at least the 14th century to radical change medieval Polish society. I wouldn’t even know where to start.

Maybe when colonizing the east bring settlers from areas with more advanced agriculture, but also some pressure on the landowners would be needed to have them more intrested in improving their lands and not just sucking out blood from the peasants

This is a map from 1790, but basically you need to have yellow and orange regions at least red. But even in 16 th century some areas had pop density exceeding 20/ km2