AHC: Best way for Britain to invade Russia/USSR?

KN1

Not concerned with how this came to be politically, just the technical side of it.

What would be the best way for Britain to invade the Russian Empire/USSR in a Barbarossa-type all-out war within the 30s or 40s? Where would be the best place to invade; through Scandinavia? Amphibious landings in Ukraine, or the Baltic states? North from India into the 'Stans?

Obviously, I'd figure the greatest problem for the British is logistics. For instance, if they had an ally/puppet in Turkey, I'd imagine that the Bosporus would be a good route of supply for an attack through Ukraine.

Any ideas? Or is it impossible, or at least without an earlier POD?

EDIT: Well, I can't say that I wasn't expecting the incredulous responses, considering that I agree with them. :p I suppose I should've been a little clearer; the POD can be a pre-1900 one as well.

The little scenario I had playing in my head (and the impetus for this thread's creation) was of a rabidly anti-communist regime assuming control in Britain in the 20s after a limited CP victory. While disliking Germany and its leftyness, they view the Soviet Union as the primary threat to European civilization and such stuff. They play off of anti-communist and anti-German sentiment (the latter compounded by Germany's expanded Zollverein dragging down the rest of Europe in a *Great Depression), pledging to liberate the eastern lands from both a Germany that is overly complacent towards the Soviets, and the Soviets themselves.

Forces that I figured would ally with the British would be France, Italy, Turkey, Poland, and the Baltics. Maybe Germany would join in, if a sufficiently right-wing party gets in power.

So, yeah. I'll edit that into the OP.
 
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Sabot Cat

Sabot Cat

Banned
The Allied intervention during the Russian Civil War would probably give you a good idea of the general logistics for this kind of operation, I think.
 
Remitonov

Remitonov

Without the US, absolutely ridiculous. With the US, only insanely difficult. A successful Russian campaign would require almost godlike logistical dominance, and logistics in the USSR is horrific, complete with autumn mud, winter, spring mud and railway gauges completely separate from the rest of Europe. The best possible way to invade it is during a general collapse of order and total anarchy, such as the Russian Civil War. Even then, without local support, don't even hope to succeed.

However, a British campaign does have the benefit that the British can get local support with enough incentives. The Soviet government has plenty of enemies within and outside its boundaries, ranging from exiled republicans, monarchists and the general disenfranchised to garner opposition. Hell, the Germans in Barbarossa, who have a pretty predictable outlook of Slavs as subhuman slave labour, managed to get support, though only when the situation looked bleak. Any promise of freedom would be more believable from Chamberlain or Churchill than Hitler. Whether they put it into action, however...
 

Corjomc

Take a coastal city, fortify it, back a rebel group, watch it grow, supply it from your well fortified base, When they take over they owe you.
 

AussieHawker

Banned
The British with Turkish support could take the Crimea as their initial base. From there they support a free Ukraine.
 
Yuelang

Yuelang

Banned
FickleCrossroad said:
Join the Axis, (you DID say you didn't care about the politics), in 1940. UK added to the mix would be enough to win.
Click to expand...

Alternatively join the Axis to save Eastern European People, whatever how counter-intuitive it was.

Invade Soviet Union, set up some pro-Axis puppet States before the Nazi outright annex it... Ask Mussolini to agree with protecting the independence of Finland, Baltic States (that wasn't Prussian Land), and Ukraine, present them as fait accompli...
 

jkay

Well, since you seem to want to want to waste lives most, my suggestion is 18thC, especially those unmissable Redcoat uniforms that were such, obvious targets, no armor and no artillery yet.

After all, it worked so well for Nappy and Hitler, even though they had real armies. Unlike Britain. Seriously, Britain's thing has been anything but its army, because it's small and can only afford a good RN and then RAF after airplanes.
 

Deleted member 9338

While ASB I will play along. :)

Side with pre-Nazi Germany, and liberate the eastern lands from the communists. Will require assistance from Poland but they may get to recreate the Commonwealth. Ukraine would become independent as well. Germany get border adjustments to the east and released from Versailles Treaty.

My question is what does Britain get?
 

KN1

Well, I can't say that I wasn't expecting the incredulous responses, considering that I agree with them. :p I suppose I should've been a little clearer; the POD can be a pre-1900 one as well.

The little scenario I had playing in my head (and the impetus for this thread's creation) was of a rabidly anti-communist regime assuming control in Britain in the 20s after a limited CP victory. While disliking Germany and its leftyness, they view the Soviet Union as the primary threat to European civilization and such stuff. They play off of anti-communist and anti-German sentiment (the latter compounded by Germany's expanded Zollverein dragging down the rest of Europe in a *Great Depression), pledging to liberate the eastern lands from both a Germany that is overly complacent towards the Soviets, and the Soviets themselves.

Forces that I figured would ally with the British would be France, Italy, Turkey, Poland, and the Baltics. Maybe Germany would join in, if a sufficiently right-wing party gets in power.

So, yeah. I'll edit that into the OP.
 

Bad@logic

DownrangeDowner said:
Well, I can't say that I wasn't expecting the incredulous responses, considering that I agree with them. :p I suppose I should've been a little clearer; the POD can be a pre-1900 one as well.

The little scenario I had playing in my head (and the impetus for this thread's creation) was of a rabidly anti-communist regime assuming control in Britain in the 20s after a limited CP victory. While disliking Germany and its leftyness, they view the Soviet Union as the primary threat to European civilization and such stuff. They play off of anti-communist and anti-German sentiment (the latter compounded by Germany's expanded Zollverein dragging down the rest of Europe in a *Great Depression), pledging to liberate the eastern lands from both a Germany that is overly complacent towards the Soviets, and the Soviets themselves.

Forces that I figured would ally with the British would be France, Italy, Turkey, Poland, and the Baltics. Maybe Germany would join in, if a sufficiently right-wing party gets in power.

So, yeah. I'll edit that into the OP.
Click to expand...

But as some posters have said, besides wiping out the Soviets, what do most of these nations get out of it? Poland doesn't exist in any CP victory except as a German puppet state with extreme emphasis on the puppet part. The Baltic States are far too weak to stand up to a Soviet attack with just a tiny expeditionary force assisting them, and Turkey was on decent terms with the Soviets as it stood during most of the era - although even if they do enter the war they're not capable of bearing significant power against the USSR. France and Italy are not going to waste yet more resources after losing WW1, especially when they can't conceivably hope to get anything out of it- what, is Ukraine going to become a Franco-Italian colonial sphere? Is Britain going go give them actual valuable colonies and not desert as a reward, which I somehow don't see happening?

They won't don't gain anything but destroying the Soviets, and that isn't enough, because the Soviets are the counterbalance they need against the Germans. French anti-German vengefulness tends to get overstated a lot of times, France was a lot more conciliatory during the Interwar than gets portrayed in the history books, but that was after winning the Great War, when they hoped they could come to an understanding of equals with Germany. Losing, they're going to be desperately seeking some sort of countermeasure. The Italians will still want to take on the Austro-Hungarians or the Austro-Hungarian remnants that hold the territory they want, and will be in the same boat as France. They might hate the Soviets, but they won't want to destroy the only other continental power capable of offering significant assistance against the Germans.
 
Maponus

Maponus

They'd need to totally avoid the German political mistakes, and make it clear from the onset that they have no territorial claims on the Russky Mir (maybe some protectorates in Central Asia adjacent to India but nowhere with large populations of "Great Russians") and have a White Russian government-in-exile, complete with a White émigré army, set up and ready to go before charging in. The British are never going to conquer Russia, the best hope is to import Counter-Revolution with widespread international support. They'll also be greatly aided by their knowledge of geography, local languages and customs when in the field. A White Russian will probably know enough about Old Grandfather Winter to warn the British about it.

The response to the horrific German invasion, which hesitated and prevaricated over the most minor symbolic gestures to both Nationalists and Anti-Communists within the Soviet Union and did its best to alienate them, clearly indicates that a more benevolent invasion would have almost universally welcomed.

As to "destroying the Soviets" giving Britain nothing, surely they also gain a allied and grateful Russian government? Whatever industrial and demographic damage can be repaired, especially when you bear in mind that Soviet Russia became a superpower after the huge destruction caused by the Nazi Invasion. They also secure India and the Far East, which the Soviets had always wanted to destabilise.
 

Shaby

Uhmm.

Well... I have a timeline where this happened. Anglo-French invasion of Crimea, Italians, Romanians and Turks fighting together in Besarabia, Germans almost commiting themselves... Read all about it in Elser succeeds or explosion heard around the world. About to be continued.
 

jkay

Yes, obviously a plan that has joint total loss to to the vast Soviet air force and army already there or about to be there, oughtta be loved by countries taking risks and the UK Cabinet. Remember that. Though since biggest losses possible seems to be what you want. Just remember that you'll the have the biggest political losses in all democracy....

Shaby, if the WWI If it has Willy II, I'm afraid it won't work. Because he had a need to attack all the world at once and lose, like Hitler.

And didja know the Ottomans as CP was a British idea, for the Ottoman oil? They stole an Ottoman battleship to make it happen. Though that'd still happen in your TL.
 

KN1

Maponus said:
They'd need to totally avoid the German political mistakes, and make it clear from the onset that they have no territorial claims on the Russky Mir (maybe some protectorates in Central Asia adjacent to India but nowhere with large populations of "Great Russians") and have a White Russian government-in-exile, complete with a White émigré army, set up and ready to go before charging in. The British are never going to conquer Russia, the best hope is to import Counter-Revolution with widespread international support. They'll also be greatly aided by their knowledge of geography, local languages and customs when in the field. A White Russian will probably know enough about Old Grandfather Winter to warn the British about it.

The response to the horrific German invasion, which hesitated and prevaricated over the most minor symbolic gestures to both Nationalists and Anti-Communists within the Soviet Union and did its best to alienate them, clearly indicates that a more benevolent invasion would have almost universally welcomed.

As to "destroying the Soviets" giving Britain nothing, surely they also gain a allied and grateful Russian government? Whatever industrial and demographic damage can be repaired, especially when you bear in mind that Soviet Russia became a superpower after the huge destruction caused by the Nazi Invasion. They also secure India and the Far East, which the Soviets had always wanted to destabilise.
Click to expand...

I like the thought of a White Russian army fighting alongside British forces in their drive to Moscow. Has a sort of romantic quality to it.

On the subject of manpower, how much could the colonial armies help? Assuming that there's no equivalent of the Pacific War that involves the British, could the Indians be of any help in terms of sheer numbers?
 

riggerrob

Surprisingly difficult to invade Russia from India.
A few mountain ranges, deserts, etc. get in the way, along with all those pesky local tribes. Local tribes cheerfully accept arms from outsiders, but are reluctant to accept orders from outsiders. Once one local tribe has pushed the neighbouring tribe outside a historical boundary (every local tribe quotes a different history book), they lose interest in further conquest.
I vote for British Commonwealth supporting the small Baltic states in 1919. Baltic states gain the advantage of short supply lines from coastal ports easily re-supplied by ships. First the Brits help Finnland achieve independence, then recruit Finns to assist their co-linguist Estonian neighbours shrug off the Russian yoke.
Then they work their way down the coast, helping Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, etc. push Russians east of historical borders (Polish history books). This creates a variety of small, loosely-aligned states that are too weak to launch a major invasion. IOW a buffer zone that assists the British Great Game of divide and conquer.

As they advance, rebuild narrow-track railways to Western Eiropean gauges. That ties long-term trade to western factories.

After the Brits help Belarus, Ukraine, etc. with their struggle for independence, the re-install a Romanoff Prince on the throne, but a western-educated prince with more progressive ideas, a prince who is willing to listen to the Duma and seriously invest in industrialization.
All this is backed by propaganda that tells honest stories about OTL communist purges, pogroms, Cold War, etc.
 
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