A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

[pdf27]

11th December 1941
Alois Hudal, Titular Bishop of Aela and Rector of the Collegio Teutonico di Santa Maria dell'Anima is dismissed by the Holy See following concerns raised by the Holy Office relating to some of his most recent writings. He is replaced by Fr Jakob Gapp at the Collegio Teutonico, and retires to the Abbey of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata after being refused permission to stay in Rome. The bishopric of Aela is to remain unfilled for the time being.
A large number of fights break out across Germany after Goering’s broadcast, either between Heer or Luftwaffe and SS units, or in many cases within SS units themselves. While there is obviously going to be some ongoing fighting, by evening it is clear that the majority of SS troops are loyal to the central government in Berlin rather than to Himmler. Those loyal to Himmler are mostly concentrated in Bavaria, Bohemia and Moravia while the SS units in the front line virtually all declared for the government in Berlin the instant that they knew they had to make a choice.

12th December 1941
The Polish Home Army get wind of Soviet preparations to invade from their network of informants in Soviet-occupied Poland. Colonel Stefan Roweki takes the decision to launch an uprising on Christmas Eve in an attempt to liberate themselves from the Germans before the Soviets can intervene, and an urgent appeal for help is sent from the ZWZ to the British and French via the Polish government in exile.

13th December 1941
When the Polish government in exile inform the British and French governments of the planned uprising, the response is incredulous and later very angry with demands that they stop it. Sikorski, however, refuses to budge and states that neither the people nor government of Poland could accept trading an occupation by the Nazis for one by the Soviet Union and would rather fight to the death without help from their allies rather than live under Stalin.

 

[varyar]

Guess it was too much to hope for that Poland might come out of all this without the Soviets in control.

 

[HJ Tulp]

This is the endgame.

 

[naraht]

11th December 1941
Alois Hudal, Titular Bishop of Aela and Rector of the Collegio Teutonico di Santa Maria dell'Anima is dismissed by the Holy See following concerns raised by the Holy Office relating to some of his most recent writings. He is replaced by Fr Jakob Gapp at the Collegio Teutonico, and retires to the Abbey of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata after being refused permission to stay in Rome. The bishopric of Aela is to remain unfilled for the time being.
A large number of fights break out across Germany after Goering’s broadcast, either between Heer or Luftwaffe and SS units, or in many cases within SS units themselves. While there is obviously going to be some ongoing fighting, by evening it is clear that the majority of SS troops are loyal to the central government in Berlin rather than to Himmler. Those loyal to Himmler are mostly concentrated in Bavaria, Bohemia and Moravia while the SS units in the front line virtually all declared for the government in Berlin the instant that they knew they had to make a choice.

12th December 1941
The Polish Home Army get wind of Soviet preparations to invade from their network of informants in Soviet-occupied Poland. Colonel Stefan Roweki takes the decision to launch an uprising on Christmas Eve in an attempt to liberate themselves from the Germans before the Soviets can intervene, and an urgent appeal for help is sent from the ZWZ to the British and French via the Polish government in exile.

13th December 1941
When the Polish government in exile inform the British and French governments of the planned uprising, the response is incredulous and later very angry with demands that they stop it. Sikorski, however, refuses to budge and states that neither the people nor government of Poland could accept trading an occupation by the Nazis for one by the Soviet Union and would rather fight to the death without help from their allies rather than live under Stalin.

One more route out of the 3R closed with the dismissal of Hudal. And Gapp isn't going to set foot anywhere controlled by the 3R. He may not end up Beatified iTTL however. (Request, can we have him pass away at age 99 on the date of his OTL Beatification) .

As for the other, the bodily waste just hit the rotating metal blades...

 

[SsgtC]

Smart of the SS. They're probably not long for being an independent branch though. I see them being rolled right up into the Heer and Luftwaffe. I think Poland is seriously screwed unless the Entente are prepared to risk war for the Poles. This being Stalin though, a convincing bluff could get him to back off.

Question? What was Goering's opinion on German Jews? Could he maybe "rationalize" Germany's policy here and decided that German Jews can still be useful and stop killing then wholesale?

 

[pdf27]

Smart of the SS. They're probably not long for being an independent branch though. I see them being rolled right up into the Heer and Luftwaffe. I think Poland is seriously screwed unless the Entente are prepared to risk war for the Poles. This being Stalin though, a convincing bluff could get him to back off.

Maybe - depends how fast Germany collapses compared to how fast the Soviets can mobilise. They aren't yet ready to go - in fact the Poles have caught wind of it before the final orders have come down from Stalin.

Question? What was Goering's opinion on German Jews? Could he maybe "rationalize" Germany's policy here and decided that German Jews can still be useful and stop killing then wholesale?

The Jewish problem will reach its solution if, in anytime soon, we will be drawn into war beyond our border—then it is obvious that we will have to manage a final account with the Jews.

Don't expect anything different to what the previous policy was...

 

[Karelian]

Question? What was Goering's opinion on German Jews? Could he maybe "rationalize" Germany's policy here and decided that German Jews can still be useful and stop killing then wholesale?

Well, he held Mich and a handful of his old WW1 comrades around and made a point of protecting them. Then again this dialogue is also more or less based on historical accounts:

edit: This video is posted on horrible channel on a closer look, but it's a good scene regardless.

 

[Archangel]

Let's hope the Poles succeed (but I fear the odds are against hem, unless the Allies move fast).

 

[Orry]

Let's hope the Poles succeed (but I fear the odds against hem, unless the Allies move fast).

Odds mean little with a kindly writer,

Many of the 'soviet' troops over the boarder will be conscript Poles

 

[matlef]

Let's hope the Poles succeed (but I fear the odds against hem, unless the Allies move fast).

I wonder if a quiet word to mr Stalin clearly pointing out their displeasure with any soviet advance into Poland. While also equally quietly conveying they accept the post MR-pact Soviet annexation of eastern Poland. Maybe that can deter Stalin while giving him an incentive to stay out of this conflict?

 

[Ian_W]

Smart of the SS. They're probably not long for being an independent branch though. I see them being rolled right up into the Heer and Luftwaffe. I think Poland is seriously screwed unless the Entente are prepared to risk war for the Poles. This being Stalin though, a convincing bluff could get him to back off.

It's not a matter of risking war - they are in a war with the power that is occupying Poland.

It's a matter of risking a winter offensive that Entente High Command would rather not conduct just yet, and supporting a force on the far side of Germany.

Now, this is where diplomacy comes into it, specifically Hungary, Rumania and Italy.

Are the Poles deft enough to be talking to Mussolini, and is Mussolini brave and/or stupid enough to intervene in Poland ahead of the Bear ?

Note that the 'rump' SS seem to be concentrated next to the Balkans ... I'd also like to point out the position of the occupying forces in Poland, where a Luftwaffe unit went by *cart* into a *ghetto* to look for *fuel*. This seems to imply to me that the German forces in Poland are down to the bones of their arse.

 

[Driftless]

Are the Poles deft enough to be talking to Mussolini, and is Mussolini brave and/or stupid enough to intervene in Poland ahead of the Bear ?

Is Mussolini even in a position to help diplomatically? That would be a high risk/high reward move for him.

If it works, he's gained major bonus points with the Entente and likely with the Poles. Maybe even with the US (as a strong anti-Bolshevik force). Even with the US as an onlooker in this fight, that anti-Red look would be a useful investment chip. If such a high-risk endeavor goes south, does he risk overextending his military - almost assuredly; but what risk would there be diplomatically?

*edit* Even if he passes on taking action, the idea would probably stir some serious thought. For a man with his ego, the idea of strong Italian influence from the Baltic to the Black Sea to the Mediterranean (and beyond?) might be irresistible.

 

[pdf27]

It should also be pointed out that they’re Luftwaffe <<infantry>>, and at least one of them was a mechanic in WW1. Crack troops they are not (probably mostly trained ground staff handed rifles when the planes ran out of fuel), but they still overrun the SS unit without breaking a sweat.

The Polish resistance staging a successful uprising would be no surprise: they managed it in far tougher circumstances in OTL. The problem is what do they do next - the Germans can field enough force to crush them at will, and the potential relief force is on the Rhine rather than the Vistula. Here, they’ve decided that if Stalin takes over they’re dead anyway - and that the sight of a civilian uprising being massacred by the Germans is probably enough to goad the British and French into action. They’re probably right on both counts.

 

[Incognitia]

It should also be pointed out that they’re Luftwaffe <<infantry>>, and at least one of them was a mechanic in WW1. Crack troops they are not (probably mostly trained ground staff handed rifles when the planes ran out of fuel), but they still overrun the SS unit without breaking a sweat.

The Polish resistance staging a successful uprising would be no surprise: they managed it in far tougher circumstances in OTL. The problem is what do they do next - the Germans can field enough force to crush them at will, and the potential relief force is on the Rhine rather than the Vistula. Here, they’ve decided that if Stalin takes over they’re dead anyway - and that the sight of a civilian uprising being massacred by the Germans is probably enough to goad the British and French into action. They’re probably right on both counts.

Very brave. The results aren't going to be pretty though.

 

[Ian_W]

The Polish resistance staging a successful uprising would be no surprise: they managed it in far tougher circumstances in OTL. The problem is what do they do next - the Germans can field enough force to crush them at will, and the potential relief force is on the Rhine rather than the Vistula.

I'd argue strongly there are potential relief forces in Hungary and Rumania as well.

And, depending on how much Mussolini wants to paint himself as the Liberator of Czechoslovakia, Moravia as well.

 

[kung Zog]

and that the sight of a civilian uprising being massacred by the Germans is probably enough to goad the British and French into action. They’re probably right on both counts.

I'm not so sure how much faster the Entente is willing to march while the Poles dies. Some very minor winter offensives perhaps to keep Germany on their heels. If, the Soviet gets acting quick enough the Entente might be more prepared to increase their losses.

 

[Ian_W]

I'm not so sure how much faster the Entente is willing to march while the Poles dies. Some very minor winter offensives perhaps to keep Germany on their heels. If, the Soviet gets acting quick enough the Entente might be more prepared to increase their losses.

Where it gets ugly for Entente decision makers is if the Poles can take an airfield.

At that point, providing all aid short of help becomes a lot more difficult.

And they can take an airfield.

 

[avernite]

Where it gets ugly for Entente decision makers is if the Poles can take an airfield.

At that point, providing all aid short of help becomes a lot more difficult.

And they can take an airfield.

And if they actually want to help, an airfield is probably superfluous since even if Hungary/Romania don't want to directly help, the Entente could probably get their acceptance for transshipping by land to the Polish border. Not enough to get multiple divisions in the field in Poland, but probably enough to upgrade the existing Polish resistance forces into actual frontline soldiers. Which means Germany would have to detail serious forces to take them out, at the cost of being even more completely open in the West - and they might be afraid to do that.

 

[Wet Coast]

I'd argue strongly there are potential relief forces in Hungary and Rumania as well.

And, depending on how much Mussolini wants to paint himself as the Liberator of Czechoslovakia, Moravia as well.

Hungary and Romania could jump in, declare war on Germany, join the Allies and move troops to Poland but they would have to do it together since they would not trust each other enough to move troops unilaterally. I'm pretty sure they would see this as a way to get a seat at the peace table without appearing to dogpile a corpse for loot. At that point Stalin would need to consider if he wants to get into potential conflict with members of the allies as he would loose the excuse of coming to liberate the Poles. Throw in a few British or French units shipped through any available route and it's probably enough to get Stalin to reconsider.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The Italian alliance running into help would be amusing just for Benito being actually useful.

Though it may also lead to a Soviet-Italian scrap out.