A better High Seas Fleet for WW1

[mack8]

We had plenty of discussions on WW2 navies but less so on WW1 era navies (there is a current discussion on german BBs but imo it's too narrow subject wise). So let's make a better HSF within the various technological and other constraints of the time, one than can give the RN an even harder time at Jutland, and even during a late war hypothetical Texel battle, and if possible without triggering an additional british reaction.

Can the 2 Badens and Hindenburg be ready for Jutland? I need to look more closely, but it seems the british were building their BB/BCs faster than the germans, so it seems there is room for german improvements there. Could they get the 4 Badens and at least 2, preferably 4 Mackensens ready by late 1918 for the hypothetical last ride of the Valkyries at Texel?

Can they have Kaisers and Konigs with 12 guns? Since the HSF is numerically inferior, it's reasonable to get as many guns as possible on their ships, preferably L/50 guns from their first dreanoughts. Perhaps we can get the Konigs with 32 cm guns, maybe Hindenburg as well? And on the same vein, would the Badens be better with 10x 35cm guns? I know it was considered at the design stage, has anyone seen a sketch of Baden with 10 guns?

As for secondary forces, could they build more destroyers and cruisers to support the fleet? I know about the political and monetary constrains Tirpitz was operating under, let's give him every Mark that he can possibly get without significantly affecting other budget commitments.

We can give a nod to the late years of the pre-1900 era as well since it would be relevant to the HSF of WW1.

PS: the better HSF is understood to exist in the same universe as a better Ottoman Navy and a better Austro-Hungarian Navy.

 

[jlckansas]

The problem with having more ships is you have to decide earlier what you want and when you want it. Some components of a ship can take up to 2 years to build themselves, example would be the propulsion system with the time taken to build out the different parts and assembling them, a triple expansion engine would take less time than a turbine but still take a while to build.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Can they have Kaisers and Konigs with 12 guns? Since the HSF is numerically inferior, it's reasonable to get as many guns as possible on their ships, preferably L/50 guns from their first dreanoughts.

Note that there is no free lunch. 12 guns means a bigger ship, which is more expensive, or a less well-protected ship. I suppose you could have triple turrets developed, though that might delay completion. Even then, bigger, heavier ship, which costs more, and takes longer to complete.

I know it was considered at the design stage, has anyone seen a sketch of Baden with 10 guns?

Sounds like you are picturing an enlarged Konig. Note that guns are long-lead items, and have to be developed early.

At the end of the day, this required both an earlier POD, and more money. Something else has to suffer for that. That something is probably the army, with less artillery/fewer machine guns.

As for secondary forces, could they build more destroyers and cruisers to support the fleet? I know about the political and monetary constrains Tirpitz was operating under, let's give him every Mark that he can possibly get without significantly affecting other budget commitments.

The cruisers the HSF started with were for the most part outmatched by the RN cruisers. They need better armed ones to start with. Others can perhaps comment on money.

 

[Nivek]

Make sure tripitz drowns and the new admiral is not a coward and seems the fleet to fight... done

 

[Hammerbolt]

How far can we go? I'd propose stockpilling quantities of high grade coal, for the fleet.

 

[Garrison]

Make sure tripitz drowns and the new admiral is not a coward and seems the fleet to fight... done

Which means it gets destroyed piece by piece, or all at once if things go especially badly?

 

[weasel_airlift]

Make sure tripitz drowns and the new admiral is not a coward and seems the fleet to fight... done

You know, if the HSF attacks before the end of 1914, the stats don't look terrible. Depending on when, it's around 17 HSF dreadnoughts to 21 RN dreadnoughts, and 10 RN battlecruisers to 5 HSF. Assuming Goeben can be home, and if we're going to be more aggressive, we want all of our heavies in home waters. Add to that, the RN has worldwide commitments, so some units are unavailable, and the HSF can choose it's moment, so there's a chance that at least some of the RN ships are in refit. So, no reason you couldn't have a knock-down drag out fight in 1914, that sees the HSF victorious.

Here's the problem. Even in a decisive HSF victory in that battle that sees the Grand Fleet crippled with acceptable losses to the HSF, what changes? Oh, the HSF covers itself in glory, but Germany is still under blockade. They now have to repair while Grand Fleet rebuilds, and in the interim the RN still has on the order of 40 pre-dreadnoughts to hold the line. Sure, they'll die in droves in an actual battle, but they can't be ignored. So, the RN turtles up on their snug little island and pumps out a bunch of 15" dreadnoughts while continuing to strangle the German economy.

 

[naraic]

I guess I'll take the low hanging fruit.

Have a German firm invent turbines around 1900.

Patent it.

Pay Parsons 46 million less gold marks in the run up to ww1. Use this to fund more ships.

Get the British to pay 80 million (edit to add 140 million) gold marks to a German firm making it harder for them to maintain their advantage.

Build all German dreadnoughts with turbines.

Have a minimum dreadnought speed of 21 knots.

 

[1Big Rich]

We had plenty of discussions on WW2 navies but less so on WW1 era navies (there is a current discussion on german BBs but imo it's too narrow subject wise). So let's make a better HSF within the various technological and other constraints of the time, one than can give the RN an even harder time at Jutland, and even during a late war hypothetical Texel battle, and if possible without triggering an additional british reaction.

Can they have Kaisers and Konigs with 12 guns? Since the HSF is numerically inferior, it's reasonable to get as many guns as possible on their ships, preferably L/50 guns from their first dreanoughts. Perhaps we can get the Konigs with 32 cm guns, maybe Hindenburg as well? And on the same vein, would the Badens be better with 10x 35cm guns? I know it was considered at the design stage, has anyone seen a sketch of Baden with 10 guns?

You might find this post by the late, great Bob Henneman on sizes and costs of interest:

All the World's Battlecruisers-Mackensen Class Battlecruisers

The normal practice of the British and German navies prior to WW1 was to arm their battlecruisers with the same main battery gun as the contemporary b

www.tapatalk.com

The whole thread is enlightening, but Bob's comments on the HSF battlecruisers are spot on.

The cruisers the HSF started with were for the most part outmatched by the RN cruisers. They need better armed ones to start with. Others can perhaps comment on money.

Agreed, the 4in armed light cruisers continued far too long.

You know, if the HSF attacks before the end of 1914, the stats don't look terrible. Depending on when, it's around 17 HSF dreadnoughts to 21 RN dreadnoughts, and 10 RN battlecruisers to 5 HSF. Assuming Goeben can be home, and if we're going to be more aggressive, we want all of our heavies in home waters. Add to that, the RN has worldwide commitments, so some units are unavailable, and the HSF can choose it's moment, so there's a chance that at least some of the RN ships are in refit. So, no reason you couldn't have a knock-down drag out fight in 1914, that sees the HSF victorious.

You might find this thread of interest

All the World's Battlecruisers-Goben in Germany at the outbreak of World War I

Suppose Goben had been in Germany at the outbreak of World War I, replaced on the Mediterranean Station by an older armored cruiser. How would her pre

www.tapatalk.com

Here's the problem. Even in a decisive HSF victory in that battle that sees the Grand Fleet crippled with acceptable losses to the HSF, what changes? Oh, the HSF covers itself in glory, but Germany is still under blockade. They now have to repair while Grand Fleet rebuilds, and in the interim the RN still has on the order of 40 pre-dreadnoughts to hold the line. Sure, they'll die in droves in an actual battle, but they can't be ignored. So, the RN turtles up on their snug little island and pumps out a bunch of 15" dreadnoughts while continuing to strangle the German economy.

Exactly. Cruisers are still the vital currency in blockade and guerre de course, and even with a battered Grand Fleet, the distant blockade will still be in effect. How to break the blockade? Sending the battlecruisers to attack the RN cruisers runs the risk of them being isolated and outnumbered. Sortieing the whole fleet to cover a raid on cruisers? A lot of resources, but can enough cruisers be damaged or sunk to make a difference?


Regards,

 

[Cryhavoc101]

If I was going to improve the HSF then I would start with its light Crusiers

They were generally out classed by their British opposition and given the serious geographical situation that the HSF found itself in having the British cruisers generally wiping the floor with the HSF light cruisers (the only really decisive surface actions of WW2 WW1 were generally light cruiser actions) placed them at a serious disadvantage earlier in the war particulalrly in their scouting ability vs the RN in or about the North Sea.

However with regards to Germany starting building larger, more powerful and or more ships of whatever class is going to elicit a response from Whitehall and the UK has a far superior ship building capability than Germany during this period.

But if anything I would improve the light cruisers.

 

[Monk78]

If I was going to improve the HSF then I would start with its light Crusiers

They were generally out classed by their British opposition and given the serious geographical situation that the HSF found itself in having the British cruisers generally wiping the floor with the HSF light cruisers (the only really decisive surface actions of WW2 were generally light cruiser actions) placed them at a serious disadvantage earlier in the war particulalrly in their scouting ability vs the RN in or about the North Sea.

However with regards to Germany starting building larger, more powerful and or more ships of whatever class is going to elicit a response from Whitehall and the UK has a far superior ship building capability than Germany during this period.

But if anything I would improve the light cruisers.

Can the HSF destroyers be used in scouting role ?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Can the HSF destroyers be used in scouting role ?

Not if Cruisers are their opposition and generally would have a shorter range

 

[mack8]

Some good ideas and comments. I suck at doing multiquotes, so i'll touch on some issues.

If they can get turbines asap, preferably starting with Blucher and the Nassaus, that would it seems be a great improvement. Could they make a better/more powerful Blucher? Ideally it should have been as similar as reasonably possible to Von der Tann, but that perhaps is too early. But perhaps they can get earlier intelligence on the Invincibles somehow, so Blucher can be altered/redesigned accordingly.

If they go for turbines earlier, is it too much/too early for things like superfiring turrets for the Nassaus/Helgolands?

Can they also improve their pre-dreadnoughts, since aiui they were not on par with other such ships abroad? And i think the same applies to their older armoured cruisers.

Regarding cruisers and destroyers as well as the other main combatants, i found this table for the 1914 strength of the major navies.

The Naval Balance of Power in 1914

In 1914 the British Royal Navy (RN) remained the largest in the world. Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz, supported by Kaiser Wilhelm II, had attempted to create a German navy that could match the RN, but…

warandsecurity.com

I don't quite think the british are going to be spooked if the germans have another 25-30 destroyers as well as another dozen cruisers of various types, though perhaps this might need a POD before 1900. Of course, one issue is how to pay for it, so we have to somehow give Tirpitz more money if possible. I need to educate myself on the german cruisers/ destroyers of the time vs the british ones.

 

[weasel_airlift]

If they go for turbines earlier, is it too much/too early for things like superfiring turrets for the Nassaus/Helgolands?

Not at all. The South Carolina class was laid down before the Nassau class.

If they can get turbines asap, preferably starting with Blucher and the Nassaus, that would it seems be a great improvement. Could they make a better/more powerful Blucher? Ideally it should have been as similar as reasonably possible to Von der Tann, but that perhaps is too early. But perhaps they can get earlier intelligence on the Invincibles somehow, so Blucher can be altered/redesigned accordingly.

I believe the Blucher was designed the way she was because intelligence said that the Invincibles would have 9.2" guns, and the Germans considered their 8.2" to be equal. You might reasonably have it designed with 9.4" guns instead. Still light, but still decent guns.

Can they also improve their pre-dreadnoughts, since aiui they were not on par with other such ships abroad? And i think the same applies to their older armoured cruisers.

When? After Dreadnought that is throwing good money after bad. They are second tier units at best.

I don't quite think the british are going to be spooked if the germans have another 25-30 destroyers as well as another dozen cruisers of various types, though perhaps this might need a POD before 1900. Of course, one issue is how to pay for it, so we have to somehow give Tirpitz more money if possible. I need to educate myself on the german cruisers/ destroyers of the time vs the british ones.

Not at all. They probably just smirk at the HSF finally getting with the times. They need light cruisers packing 15 cm guns, and destroyers packing 10.5 cm guns.

 

[naraic]

Can the HSF destroyers be used in scouting role ?

The HSF torpedo boats are generally smaller than the GF destroyers. As such they would probably struggle with the GF destroyer screen.

They may have better success as a scout if they were to change doctrinally and use their torpedoes earlier as they can use them to punch through British screening destroyers and crusiers.

The real problem with the HSF torpedo boats acting as scouts is that the HSF saved the best coal for capital ships and left their destroyers with dregs. Something like 40 torpedo boats needed their boilers cleaned out of coal residue after Jutland as there was so much slag behind.

If they go for turbines earlier, is it too much/too early for things like superfiring turrets for the Nassaus/Helgolands?

I doubt they will go for superfiring for the Nassaus but an arrangement more similar to the Dreadnought's with 2 rather than 4 wing turrets. They may start going superfiring for the Helgolands.

Can they also improve their pre-dreadnoughts, since aiui they were not on par with other such ships abroad? And i think the same applies to their older armoured cruisers.

Depends on how early you want to set your POD. The Deutschlands and Braunschweigs were comparable with the KEVIIs and the Duncans and behind the Lord Nelsons.

The Germans reacted to the Lord Nelsons with their first dreadnoughts. You don't want a class of semi dreadnoughts to delay the Nassaus.

The Wittlesbach and Kaiser Friedrich III classes are well behind the comparable British Canopus and Formidable classes but we are going back to the 1890s and these are 3rd line units.

 

[Catspoke]

If I was going to improve the HSF then I would start with its light Crusiers

They were generally out classed by their British opposition and given the serious geographical situation that the HSF found itself in having the British cruisers generally wiping the floor with the HSF light cruisers (the only really decisive surface actions of WW2 were generally light cruiser actions) placed them at a serious disadvantage earlier in the war particulalrly in their scouting ability vs the RN in or about the North Sea.

However with regards to Germany starting building larger, more powerful and or more ships of whatever class is going to elicit a response from Whitehall and the UK has a far superior ship building capability than Germany during this period.

But if anything I would improve the light cruisers.

Something like British town classes??? 5.9 inch + rangy then????, i.e. Sydney

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

There's no way to make the High Seas Fleet strong enough to defeat the Grand Fleet without either major assistance, or a POD that would have such large changes for Germany, Britain, or both, that it would butterfly away any recognizable form of World War I.

 

[Sasza]

Send the Austro-Hungarian fleet to the North Sea just before the war begins.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Something like British town classes??? 5.9 inch + rangy then????, i.e. Sydney

When you look at Sydney vs Emden and some of the other lighter ship actions such as the Battle of Heligoland Blight it did seem that the 6" armed British ships had the range over the lighter 4.1" armed German counter parts and this (and being RN) allowed them to bully their German opposition pretty much every time Light Cruiser met light cruiser

So yes German Towns!

 

[redfire]

You know, if the HSF attacks before the end of 1914, the stats don't look terrible. Depending on when, it's around 17 HSF dreadnoughts to 21 RN dreadnoughts, and 10 RN battlecruisers to 5 HSF. Assuming Goeben can be home, and if we're going to be more aggressive, we want all of our heavies in home waters. Add to that, the RN has worldwide commitments, so some units are unavailable, and the HSF can choose it's moment, so there's a chance that at least some of the RN ships are in refit. So, no reason you couldn't have a knock-down drag out fight in 1914, that sees the HSF victorious.

Here's the problem. Even in a decisive HSF victory in that battle that sees the Grand Fleet crippled with acceptable losses to the HSF, what changes? Oh, the HSF covers itself in glory, but Germany is still under blockade. They now have to repair while Grand Fleet rebuilds, and in the interim the RN still has on the order of 40 pre-dreadnoughts to hold the line. Sure, they'll die in droves in an actual battle, but they can't be ignored. So, the RN turtles up on their snug little island and pumps out a bunch of 15" dreadnoughts while continuing to strangle the German economy.

I am a naval novice, so excuse my ignorance, but would not a decisive German victory at sea in 1914 help with the blockade at least somewhat? More would get past, etc.?