What I find interesting is that at the same time as the British Army is moving to the use of armoured cars instead of light tanks for reconnaissance purposes, the German Army is moving towards light tanks for reconnaissance purposes. Armoured cars weren't seen as being suitable, because they could not traverse terrain that tanks could, with their fully tracked chassis. The Luchs was a consequence of this. It was however, too small and too light armoured and armed to be a good vehicle and so they continued with the use of Armoured cars for the purpose.
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
They started in 1939 with the invasion of Poland. Approximately a year or so after the British Army ITL.
It's true that tanks have an advantage on very bad terrain, but there really isn't that much of that in Western Europe, and they didn't do badly in the desert either. No-one is going to do a trench run with them.
Lt-35 and Browning
21st February 1937, Vickers
Vickers had actually welcomed the request from the War Office to look at alternatives to their water-cooled LMG. The design team had never been really happy with it - while it was very reliable, it was big and bulky and quite heavy to mount. They had looked at the possibility of the Czech ZB-53 gun. This was reliable, although it would require quite a large opening to fit, but the biggest problem was the ammunition - it would be unique to this gun, and while the armoured force logistics train could handle that, it would still need a new production line set up. Modifying it to take the British 0.303 cartridge would take considerable time.
The other alternative was the 0.303 Browning. They were quite familiar with this gun, as it was being used by the RAF in their new 8-gun fighters, and was already being produced under license. They thought mounting it wouldn't be a problem, but were concerned about the reliability on a tank. On an aircraft, the gun was in a cold environment, allowing a light barrel. This would probably overheat when used on a tank, and so a new barrel design would be needed. An enquiry was made to the Browning company in the USA regarding the feasibility and the difficulty involved. If this could be worked out, they would suggest using this in place of the Vickers.
The next issues they had to worry about were the changes needed to the A10*. Sir John and his team had already made noticeable improvements to the track and suspension, and agreed that given the time during the initial production run, they could do a bit more. It would be at least as reliable as the existing tanks, although they were beginning to be a little worried about the track life. This hadn't been a problem on their light tanks, but the heavier A10* and A11 were putting a lot more strain on them. Again, they indicated that it was a problem they were working on, and at least new tracks were an easy enough thing to fit.
The suggestion that they fit the Mk2 Kestrel to both tanks was a bit of a surprise, they'd thought it too small for the infantry tank, but it seemed the Army was actually fine with the performance shown so far. They replied that of course they could fit it in both tanks if requested, although they would prefer to carry on with the development of the 500hp diesel, as an insurance policy against future needs.
The request about other companies who could build the tank was a bit less welcome - ideally they would have preferred to build them all themselves, and they did point out that this was the most efficient course. It wasn't an unexpected request however, and Vickers had already been talking about the possibilities with some of their associated companies. The preferred partner, at least for a first tank order, was Harland and Wolff in Belfast. They felt a second production line, to supplement the one they were working on at their Elswick works, would be useful. Harland and Wolff were experienced in heavy engineering (they already built ships), and a plant there would have the added advantage of being outside the range of air attack from Germany. They had also had discussions with Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Company and Metropolitan-Cammell Carriage & Wagon Company, but felt that unless orders for tanks increased considerably, keeping to two firms was currently the most economical solution.
While officially nothing had been said about the number of tanks needed, unofficially a figure of 150 had been mentioned to them, and prompt delivery would be needed. Vickers reply stated that it would take about 8-9 months to gear up their Elswick plant for the new tank production line, and after that it could produce tanks at the rate of 10/month. This could quite easily be increased to 20/month if additional investment was forthcoming from the government. A similar setup in Belfast would yield similar output, although the need to become familiar with tank building would mean that the delivery of the first tanks would be later, and it would take more time to ramp up to full production. Perhaps a split of 100 tanks from Vickers and 50 from H&W would be a good solution, this would deliver the tanks in about 18 months from the order date. Obviously any subsequent orders would be delivered much faster if required.
The engine plant was a somewhat different problem. Their suggestion was that a dedicated plant was established in Scotland, where there was a plentiful supply of skilled labour available, run by themselves with some start-up help from Rolls-Royce. Scotland would also be quite far away from potential air attack. They had plans for such a plant, and if the government would provide some investment help, could have it up and running in under a year. A small number of engines could be built by hand with some Kestrel parts supplied by Rolls-Royce to cover the first batch of tanks.
25th February 1937, MEE Farnborough
Sergeant Web worked his way out of the LT-35 tank and stretched. He wasn't a tall man, but he reckoned he'd got soft after testing the two recent Vickers offerings. While neither of them had been what anyone would term spacious, they'd been roomy by tank standards. This Czech tank was far tighter on space. Sliding down off the tank, he grabbed a mug of tea gratefully - it was a cold day, and his Captain was already sipping his own mug.
"So, Sergeant, first thoughts?"
Web rubbed his chin before replying to the Captain.
"Some good points, Sir, some bad. It runs well, and it's reasonably fast. Tracks stayed on too."
Both men smiled at that, while there had been considerable improvement, the original Vickers cruiser designs tendency to go one way while its tracks went the other was fixed in everyone's mind.
"It's well constructed, Sir, but that's what we'd expect from the Czechs. It's cramped inside - nothing terrible, but it could be better. There are a couple of annoying issues. They've put a grill between the fighting compartment and the engine, supposedly for ventilation. But it makes for a damn cold breeze, especially on a day like today. The radios get in the way of the radio operator, and the driver can't sit upright or he hits the radios again."
He took another sip of his tea. "The biggest issue is the gun. It isn't shoulder balanced, it has an elevation control. What's worst is I have to aim, fire, load the gun and command the tank as well. It's a lot to do, Sir."
The officer thought about that for a bit. "Could we squeeze another man in, make it a 4-man vehicle?"
Sergeant Web looked dubious. "It's possible, Sir, if we moved stuff around, maybe reduced the ammo load, we could squeeze a gunner in. But going to our normal shoulder mounting, even if we use the 2pdr rather than the HV 3pdr, well that will leave us even less space to work with. I'm not sure we could do both."
4th March 1937, MEE Farnborough.
"Well, gentlemen, we've had a week to look at this Czech tank, and I need to make a preliminary report to the Mechanisation people. I know we haven't had the time we need to do a full test program, but they want our initial thoughts as soon as possible."
None of the officers were terribly happy about being rushed like this, but this time there wasn't much choice.
"Well Sir, we've noted down our first thoughts. It's reliable, has a reasonable although not outstanding speed, and has been reliable for the short time we've had it. We'd like a longer time to run it through a proper testing program."
"And the problems? Anything come up we haven't put down yet?"
"A few small points that could be fixed later, as we'd expect. There are issues with the internal layout, its not terribly good. The biggest problem is the gun; its not shoulder-aimed, and changing it so something like our 2pdr would take up turret space, which is at a premium already. We've checked the numbers, and while we could do that we'd have to stick to a one-man turret, which we don't like. We could just squeeze in a second man if we kept their gun, but then you can't have it shoulder aimed."
The senior office looked around. "Very well, anyone have anything else?" No-one brought up anything, so he continued. "I'll send this off to them, emphasising its very provisional, and that we intend to keep it for another month if possible to carry out proper running and reliability tests. I'd also like to firm up the options on the turret and internal layout properly."
"Sir, one other thing? We're really heavily loaded with all the testing right now, is there any chance of getting some help?"
"Ah yes. I've been working on that, it looks like our workload is going to be rather high for some time. I don't want to let the quality of our work go down, so I'm arranging to get some experienced men on loan from Bovington for a while, to help handle the actual tests. Our men can then concentrate on the more technical stuff."
Vickers had actually welcomed the request from the War Office to look at alternatives to their water-cooled LMG. The design team had never been really happy with it - while it was very reliable, it was big and bulky and quite heavy to mount. They had looked at the possibility of the Czech ZB-53 gun. This was reliable, although it would require quite a large opening to fit, but the biggest problem was the ammunition - it would be unique to this gun, and while the armoured force logistics train could handle that, it would still need a new production line set up. Modifying it to take the British 0.303 cartridge would take considerable time.
The other alternative was the 0.303 Browning. They were quite familiar with this gun, as it was being used by the RAF in their new 8-gun fighters, and was already being produced under license. They thought mounting it wouldn't be a problem, but were concerned about the reliability on a tank. On an aircraft, the gun was in a cold environment, allowing a light barrel. This would probably overheat when used on a tank, and so a new barrel design would be needed. An enquiry was made to the Browning company in the USA regarding the feasibility and the difficulty involved. If this could be worked out, they would suggest using this in place of the Vickers.
The next issues they had to worry about were the changes needed to the A10*. Sir John and his team had already made noticeable improvements to the track and suspension, and agreed that given the time during the initial production run, they could do a bit more. It would be at least as reliable as the existing tanks, although they were beginning to be a little worried about the track life. This hadn't been a problem on their light tanks, but the heavier A10* and A11 were putting a lot more strain on them. Again, they indicated that it was a problem they were working on, and at least new tracks were an easy enough thing to fit.
The suggestion that they fit the Mk2 Kestrel to both tanks was a bit of a surprise, they'd thought it too small for the infantry tank, but it seemed the Army was actually fine with the performance shown so far. They replied that of course they could fit it in both tanks if requested, although they would prefer to carry on with the development of the 500hp diesel, as an insurance policy against future needs.
The request about other companies who could build the tank was a bit less welcome - ideally they would have preferred to build them all themselves, and they did point out that this was the most efficient course. It wasn't an unexpected request however, and Vickers had already been talking about the possibilities with some of their associated companies. The preferred partner, at least for a first tank order, was Harland and Wolff in Belfast. They felt a second production line, to supplement the one they were working on at their Elswick works, would be useful. Harland and Wolff were experienced in heavy engineering (they already built ships), and a plant there would have the added advantage of being outside the range of air attack from Germany. They had also had discussions with Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Company and Metropolitan-Cammell Carriage & Wagon Company, but felt that unless orders for tanks increased considerably, keeping to two firms was currently the most economical solution.
While officially nothing had been said about the number of tanks needed, unofficially a figure of 150 had been mentioned to them, and prompt delivery would be needed. Vickers reply stated that it would take about 8-9 months to gear up their Elswick plant for the new tank production line, and after that it could produce tanks at the rate of 10/month. This could quite easily be increased to 20/month if additional investment was forthcoming from the government. A similar setup in Belfast would yield similar output, although the need to become familiar with tank building would mean that the delivery of the first tanks would be later, and it would take more time to ramp up to full production. Perhaps a split of 100 tanks from Vickers and 50 from H&W would be a good solution, this would deliver the tanks in about 18 months from the order date. Obviously any subsequent orders would be delivered much faster if required.
The engine plant was a somewhat different problem. Their suggestion was that a dedicated plant was established in Scotland, where there was a plentiful supply of skilled labour available, run by themselves with some start-up help from Rolls-Royce. Scotland would also be quite far away from potential air attack. They had plans for such a plant, and if the government would provide some investment help, could have it up and running in under a year. A small number of engines could be built by hand with some Kestrel parts supplied by Rolls-Royce to cover the first batch of tanks.
25th February 1937, MEE Farnborough
Sergeant Web worked his way out of the LT-35 tank and stretched. He wasn't a tall man, but he reckoned he'd got soft after testing the two recent Vickers offerings. While neither of them had been what anyone would term spacious, they'd been roomy by tank standards. This Czech tank was far tighter on space. Sliding down off the tank, he grabbed a mug of tea gratefully - it was a cold day, and his Captain was already sipping his own mug.
"So, Sergeant, first thoughts?"
Web rubbed his chin before replying to the Captain.
"Some good points, Sir, some bad. It runs well, and it's reasonably fast. Tracks stayed on too."
Both men smiled at that, while there had been considerable improvement, the original Vickers cruiser designs tendency to go one way while its tracks went the other was fixed in everyone's mind.
"It's well constructed, Sir, but that's what we'd expect from the Czechs. It's cramped inside - nothing terrible, but it could be better. There are a couple of annoying issues. They've put a grill between the fighting compartment and the engine, supposedly for ventilation. But it makes for a damn cold breeze, especially on a day like today. The radios get in the way of the radio operator, and the driver can't sit upright or he hits the radios again."
He took another sip of his tea. "The biggest issue is the gun. It isn't shoulder balanced, it has an elevation control. What's worst is I have to aim, fire, load the gun and command the tank as well. It's a lot to do, Sir."
The officer thought about that for a bit. "Could we squeeze another man in, make it a 4-man vehicle?"
Sergeant Web looked dubious. "It's possible, Sir, if we moved stuff around, maybe reduced the ammo load, we could squeeze a gunner in. But going to our normal shoulder mounting, even if we use the 2pdr rather than the HV 3pdr, well that will leave us even less space to work with. I'm not sure we could do both."
4th March 1937, MEE Farnborough.
"Well, gentlemen, we've had a week to look at this Czech tank, and I need to make a preliminary report to the Mechanisation people. I know we haven't had the time we need to do a full test program, but they want our initial thoughts as soon as possible."
None of the officers were terribly happy about being rushed like this, but this time there wasn't much choice.
"Well Sir, we've noted down our first thoughts. It's reliable, has a reasonable although not outstanding speed, and has been reliable for the short time we've had it. We'd like a longer time to run it through a proper testing program."
"And the problems? Anything come up we haven't put down yet?"
"A few small points that could be fixed later, as we'd expect. There are issues with the internal layout, its not terribly good. The biggest problem is the gun; its not shoulder-aimed, and changing it so something like our 2pdr would take up turret space, which is at a premium already. We've checked the numbers, and while we could do that we'd have to stick to a one-man turret, which we don't like. We could just squeeze in a second man if we kept their gun, but then you can't have it shoulder aimed."
The senior office looked around. "Very well, anyone have anything else?" No-one brought up anything, so he continued. "I'll send this off to them, emphasising its very provisional, and that we intend to keep it for another month if possible to carry out proper running and reliability tests. I'd also like to firm up the options on the turret and internal layout properly."
"Sir, one other thing? We're really heavily loaded with all the testing right now, is there any chance of getting some help?"
"Ah yes. I've been working on that, it looks like our workload is going to be rather high for some time. I don't want to let the quality of our work go down, so I'm arranging to get some experienced men on loan from Bovington for a while, to help handle the actual tests. Our men can then concentrate on the more technical stuff."
Time. The browning is already licensed, and (though they don't know it yet) actually has a heavy-duty barrel for tank use (designed for a US tank). They have a big production line already running for the RAF. They'd have to modify the K to take a belt feed, test and debug it.
I was a bit surprised they didn't just use the browning rather than go for the Czech gun with its non-standard ammo.
The Vickers VGO ('K') was trialled against the Browning for the original RAF requirement and was found more reliable and came with a 300 round drum. Like the RAF Browning it would need to have the rate of fire reduced considerably. At 600 rounds per minute that gives it a 30 second trigger time capacity. Long belts typically came in 250 rounds sets.
British ammunition manufacturers had been making 7.92mm Mauser since WW1 but not 0.300" Browning so the ammunition manufacture for the ZB 53 is actually easier.
British ammunition manufacturers had been making 7.92mm Mauser since WW1 but not 0.300" Browning so the ammunition manufacture for the ZB 53 is actually easier.
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However they have a big production line in place for ammo for the RAF, so its not an issue.
I assume they selected the browning over the K for a reason, and so using it in tanks seems an obvious solution. Browning have even done the barrel modification already.
Of course, the task is to find out what the enemy are up to and report back, not to fight stuff!
Mind, I can see the infantry seeing a very mobile 2pdr as a rather nice accessory!
Some good modern armoured cars out in Egypt in 1939/40 would be most welcome. There is also Iraq and Persia where they would be appreciated. once Italy throw in their hand there is the matter of Ethiopia and Italian east Africa.
marathag
Banned
With this version of the old Vickers bellcrank suspension
In Poland, the Germans had 244 vehicles, of which, 77were lost mostly from breakdowns. Biggest problem areas was the pneumatic drivers power assist controls and electrical, that made it easy to drive, when they worked
marathag
Banned
On some M4s had the air precleaners for the engines in the crew compartment, and access thru the firewall
Effect?
- Dmitriy Fedorovich, our tankers who fought on the British Churchills pointed out the weak heater in the crew compartment as a deficiency. The standard electric heater was inadequate for the conditions of the Russian winter. How was the Sherman equipped in this regard?
- The Sherman had two engines connected by a coupling joint. This was both good and bad. There were cases when one of these motors was disabled in battle. Then the coupling joint could be disengaged from the crew compartment and the tank could crawl away from the fight on one engine. On the other hand, there were powerful fans located above both engines. We used to say, "Open your mouth and the wind came out your ass!" How the hell could we get warm? There were such strong drafts of air! Perhaps there was heat coming from the engines, but I will not tell you that it was warm. When we halted, we immediately covered the engine compartment with our tarpaulin. Then it stayed warm in the tank for several hours; we slept in the tank. Not for nothing did the Americans give us fleece-lined coveralls.
Tanks are never particularly warm in winter, but apparently the Czech design was poor
In 1937, anything with a 2-pdr is pretty much a tank-destroyer. Not against the French, maybe, but the rest of the world is fielding things like the Vickers 6-ton, Pz I, CV-35 and T-26, most of which have less than 20mm armour.
Regarding armoured cars vs tanks for mobility, remember that the British are planning to fight in north-west Europe (with a dense, well-developed road network) and secondarily in the Middle East (where armoured cars have worked well before). It's a much more wheel-friendly environment compared to, say, Russia in the mud season.
marathag
Banned
The biggest problems seems to have been with the pneumatic power steering, braking and shifting controls, that water would get in the system and freeze.
So an issue that wouldn't crop up, in say, Libya.
The coldness was apparently due to their only being a mesh grille between the fighting compartment and the engine, in order to provide airflow over the engine. While it did, it also produced a cold breeze over the crew as well. That probably wouldn't be a problem in Libya either, but there were a few other issues that the MEE were unhappy with