Well, that is a bit of an AH goldmine right there. Thanks for sharing that!
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
marathag
Banned
J-6 9 R975 Whirlwind was around since 1928, and that would have been on lower octane at that point. The earlier Wright J-5 R790 ran on as low as 50 octane back in the '20s. Power levels increased with the compression ratio, from 300hp@2000rpm in 1928 to 330hp@2000rpm with 73 octane to 450hp@2250rpm in 1935 with 80 octane.They may be considered in the future, but its too early for them yet. IIRC, the Bedford isnt built yet, and the GM wont be available for a couple of years. The Continental engine (at 225hp, pool petrol) is too small.
Besides, they have the Liberty!!
Postwar higher octane got it to 500hp@2300rpm on 91 octane
Another choice, if a Diesel was wanted, was the Packard Diesel, the DR-980 that was used for some record setting flights(1), but production was ended in 1933, from some durability issues, but also from the pilots did not care for the exhaust smell, same complaint as the slightly later Guiberson radial.
(1) Walter Lee's Packard powered Bellanca Pacemaker set the world’s non-refueling record, 84 hours in 1931, only surpassed by Dick Rutan in 1986
Not quite a economic POD, but @perfectgeneral started a Morris SI that was quite interesting.Spoilsport - economic PODs might seem dry but can generate more butterflies and cash from HM Treasury (or equivalents) than most political ones!
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/william-morris-self-made-insert.
However there are some problems in using an American engine. Dollars are an issue, so it would have to be built in the UK under license. The problem with that (as Rolls-Royce found in 1940), is that it takes considerable time to completely redo the drawings and specification. Given that's its peacetime, this will be slow. They then have to test and prove the British-built version. They have a good diesel in the Ricciardo modified Kestrel, its British and given it's origin they are prepared to accept it will be reliable. Now later on, when they start needing engines more urgently, it may be a different matter, but that isn't the case right now.
I still advocate doing a universal carrier and armored car factories in the dominions before the war starts after they are accepted in the upcoming updates? Especially for canada and india . To change things from otl sowewhat .
The point that you made that universal carriers will keep casualties down would be massive especially to the canadians and white dominions if advertised as such . Maybe have the brits give some expertise and maybe a no interest loan ? And india had 18 cavarly regiments at the start of the war wich were supposed to be mechanized aswell but it lagged behind thanks to not enough manufacturing . You could also create a truck manufacturing plant or two aswell so they get enough transport capacity especially in india?
Basicly the idea would be in uplifting the colonies and having them equip themselves rather than rely on the british since the british themselves will have enough trouble arming themselves anyway. The indian army was all volunteer force of about 2,5 million people during the war by the way and that was mostly to defend the empire and not europe .
The australians could also do a universal carrier factory and south africa aswell somewhat to be honest but both are abit less likely .
It could also be somewhat considered on the shadow factory scheme aswell , maybe a branch of it ? Someone could mention that the army has enough problems equiping themselves and the idea of equiping the dominion armies and especially indian hordes with british manufacturing doesnt seem realistic considering the money and british manufacturing power when the meeting about armored cars and universal carrier is going on.
And after you have done these factories wich would start producing in 38/39 you would have alot easier time with setting up a tank factory atleast compared to otl if you want aswell .
As u said in the update a order of 100-200 upgraded 6 tonners arent a bad idea even if it just for training purposes to be honest and they would still be useful in a recon role . Maybe my idea of a light tank company in each cavarly regiment for a little bit firepower could be adopted alongside getting most of them into armored cars ?`It would still save alot of spending compared to otl but british arent super capable of doing masses of decent tanks right now aswell so it isnt a bad idea.
The point that you made that universal carriers will keep casualties down would be massive especially to the canadians and white dominions if advertised as such . Maybe have the brits give some expertise and maybe a no interest loan ? And india had 18 cavarly regiments at the start of the war wich were supposed to be mechanized aswell but it lagged behind thanks to not enough manufacturing . You could also create a truck manufacturing plant or two aswell so they get enough transport capacity especially in india?
Basicly the idea would be in uplifting the colonies and having them equip themselves rather than rely on the british since the british themselves will have enough trouble arming themselves anyway. The indian army was all volunteer force of about 2,5 million people during the war by the way and that was mostly to defend the empire and not europe .
The australians could also do a universal carrier factory and south africa aswell somewhat to be honest but both are abit less likely .
It could also be somewhat considered on the shadow factory scheme aswell , maybe a branch of it ? Someone could mention that the army has enough problems equiping themselves and the idea of equiping the dominion armies and especially indian hordes with british manufacturing doesnt seem realistic considering the money and british manufacturing power when the meeting about armored cars and universal carrier is going on.
And after you have done these factories wich would start producing in 38/39 you would have alot easier time with setting up a tank factory atleast compared to otl if you want aswell .
As u said in the update a order of 100-200 upgraded 6 tonners arent a bad idea even if it just for training purposes to be honest and they would still be useful in a recon role . Maybe my idea of a light tank company in each cavarly regiment for a little bit firepower could be adopted alongside getting most of them into armored cars ?`It would still save alot of spending compared to otl but british arent super capable of doing masses of decent tanks right now aswell so it isnt a bad idea.
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There is a real issue with having the Dominions re-arm before the start of the war. If your thought the British government was avoiding the issue, they had nothing on Canada.
Once the war starts, yes, Canada would certainly like the carrier idea, and a Canada-pattern one would be straightforward. India actually made an Indian-pattern carrier in OTL, so again, yes. Australia not so certain, there would be issues with using them in the heat, and they might have a problem with sourcing the armour plate.
Once the war starts, yes, Canada would certainly like the carrier idea, and a Canada-pattern one would be straightforward. India actually made an Indian-pattern carrier in OTL, so again, yes. Australia not so certain, there would be issues with using them in the heat, and they might have a problem with sourcing the armour plate.
marathag
Banned
True, but the UK had plenty of Radials in that range, just need to get the Air Ministry blessing.
So probably easier to buy US
But really, a Bristol Mercury is a bit much for an A9/A10 sized cruiser, but that engine had been around forever, and did run on low octane fuel at 300hp, as did Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah or Lynx for 200-270hp, and that wasn't in demand by the RAF
To a Dominion government pre WWII the question isn't how should we re arm, but why should we re arm? That's what the Mother Country's for.
I hate to say this but. . . . You probably need a different set of economic policies in the mid-1930s. Probably earlier, from 1930 or 1931. In both the UK and Dominions
Generally looser fiscal policy, more investment projects linked to shipbuilding and road transport. And efforts to build up industrial capabilities in the Dominions and India. Rather than looking on the UK as the predominant industrial centre and the colonies etc. being primarily producing foods and raw materials for it.
Basically very implausible and almost ASB.
Well i still think there is some need for the indian army pre war cause they really also wanted to mechanize but had real trouble sourcing the equipment especially heavier equipment . They had 18 freaking cavarly regiments wich is about the same the british themselves had at the start of the war and they were also short of trucks and stuff like that .
It also isnt a dominon and is still a colony with a 200k+ army with another 200ish k miltia and as i said earlier was a volunteer force of 2,5 million by the end of the war.
If armored stuff is problematic , you could atleast do trucks , jeeps and stuff like that atleast there . This could be mentioned by a officer who has come home from indian service that they are having trouble equipping themselves properly and they do have almost 20 horse regiments to convert aswell during the armored car meeting especially ? And the army advocates for it cause british re armament isnt really enough for a big enough british army and thats the motivation maybe ?
You could also build ammunition factories there so that logistics for the empire arent as bad and u save on shipping or is that already existant there for east of suez forces.
The main driving force would be that the british dont have the manufacturing for equipping the regular indian army and thats not talking about any expansion.
I do agree that the white dominions are rather iffy to get the factories started prewar . But maybe as a idea at the start of the war in the fall of 39 atleast could make some sense right ? So they are quicker to set up and start contributing sooner.
The carrier is something the americans could build instead of shermans for the british to be honest is another idea and as astro said that it is very suitable contribution by canadian industry to the war effort when their otl tanks went to the soviets and be a quicker option aswell than tanks hopefully is another point outside equipping their own forces with them.
It also isnt a dominon and is still a colony with a 200k+ army with another 200ish k miltia and as i said earlier was a volunteer force of 2,5 million by the end of the war.
If armored stuff is problematic , you could atleast do trucks , jeeps and stuff like that atleast there . This could be mentioned by a officer who has come home from indian service that they are having trouble equipping themselves properly and they do have almost 20 horse regiments to convert aswell during the armored car meeting especially ? And the army advocates for it cause british re armament isnt really enough for a big enough british army and thats the motivation maybe ?
You could also build ammunition factories there so that logistics for the empire arent as bad and u save on shipping or is that already existant there for east of suez forces.
The main driving force would be that the british dont have the manufacturing for equipping the regular indian army and thats not talking about any expansion.
I do agree that the white dominions are rather iffy to get the factories started prewar . But maybe as a idea at the start of the war in the fall of 39 atleast could make some sense right ? So they are quicker to set up and start contributing sooner.
The carrier is something the americans could build instead of shermans for the british to be honest is another idea and as astro said that it is very suitable contribution by canadian industry to the war effort when their otl tanks went to the soviets and be a quicker option aswell than tanks hopefully is another point outside equipping their own forces with them.
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Driftless
Donor
Funding more universal carriers is a separate issue, but from the build perspective, could the Universal carrier, or this TL's small carrier equivalent have been built at tractor works? I'd think they would have experience with that level of foundry work, middleweight vehicle assembly, and some manufacturing capacity. That capacity could be in the US, UK, Canada, or Australia. (I don't believe there were Indian made tractors till after WW2)
I ment americans mainly in the lend lease tanks later in the war . Since british tanks will be decent enough hopefully thanks to less fluffing about and the pod itself being that idea then british need for shermans and fireflys will be butteflied away to be honest. Instead of that u could have like 5 maybe 10 times as many universal carriers instead for example for same amount of money. Hell transporting enough of them might be problem . This also a item that might be a nice item to give to the soviets as aid aswell.
And as u mentioned universal carriers and even armored cars are many times simpler to manufacture than full blown tanks is the attraction. And as u mentioned it can convert to building either trains or tractors and stuff after the war anyway hopefully atleast for india aswell and trucks and stuff like that are needed anyway for civilan life aswell or buses maybe .
I know india built some stuff during the war but only during the war and it took alot to set up . The main diffrence is that the indian army was a proffesional standing army wich is honestly bigger than the british army if you dont count territorial army units and thats why there is a driving force to set up some truck/ car / universal carrier factories in india before the war compared to the canadian and australians. And india is a colony so its a place where the brits can go we are building a factory to supply the indian army here and thats it.
And as u mentioned universal carriers and even armored cars are many times simpler to manufacture than full blown tanks is the attraction. And as u mentioned it can convert to building either trains or tractors and stuff after the war anyway hopefully atleast for india aswell and trucks and stuff like that are needed anyway for civilan life aswell or buses maybe .
I know india built some stuff during the war but only during the war and it took alot to set up . The main diffrence is that the indian army was a proffesional standing army wich is honestly bigger than the british army if you dont count territorial army units and thats why there is a driving force to set up some truck/ car / universal carrier factories in india before the war compared to the canadian and australians. And india is a colony so its a place where the brits can go we are building a factory to supply the indian army here and thats it.
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So, Keynes' Cruisers, cruiser tanks....
They provided the bullets used in the Boer War, so there was SOME industry there
The Australians produced their own version of the Universal Carrier - the Local Pattern. It was welded, rather than riveted. They produced some 4,700 over the length of the war.
I ment before the war mainly not during to be honest mainly . Since that seems very unlikely without alot earlier pod and a diffrent atleast outside india i think . Cause india has a bigger army than britain at the moment and they are also mechanizing wich is being held up by gear mainly.
So the evolution of the argument is then during late 39 when the war starts , one of the things the dominions can build alot easier than tanks and faster also would be universal carriers .
For india it should be alot more extensive with trucks , jeeps , half tracks and stuff like that in factories aswell(early 39) since they end up the war with 2,5 million volunteers , even if british dont fail in the east or just do alot better atleast a million is a minimum , probably more like 1,5 million . And the british dont have enough industry to supply them easily is the problem that could be indentified and thats why i belive a factory or two pre war isnt a horrible idea and if not that atleast more extensive than otl effort atleast in late 39/early 40 at the latest.
So the evolution of the argument is then during late 39 when the war starts , one of the things the dominions can build alot easier than tanks and faster also would be universal carriers .
For india it should be alot more extensive with trucks , jeeps , half tracks and stuff like that in factories aswell(early 39) since they end up the war with 2,5 million volunteers , even if british dont fail in the east or just do alot better atleast a million is a minimum , probably more like 1,5 million . And the british dont have enough industry to supply them easily is the problem that could be indentified and thats why i belive a factory or two pre war isnt a horrible idea and if not that atleast more extensive than otl effort atleast in late 39/early 40 at the latest.
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MEE Feb 37
10th Feb 1937, MEE Farnborough.
The men of the MEE welcomed the team from Vickers again. While this was actually to deliver the first prototype A11 infantry tank, they spent the first morning brining them up to speed on the intensive testing they'd been doing on the A10*. Basically they were very pleased with it as a tank, with two caveats, the suspension/tracks and the engine. The tank had still thrown its tracks a few times during testing, but this had only happened once when they kept to the suggested speed limits, and this was considered acceptable. They were going to report that if any contract was placed, that Vickers would include an agreement to keep working on and improving this aspect of the tank. This the Vickers team were quite happy to verbally commit to. The second issue was the engine. The test team actually liked it, it had shown itself to be reliable and powerful. They had found a few minor issues regarding overheating at full power, but felt these could be quickly solved. As a Rolls-Royce derivative, they weren't terribly worried about its long term reliability, but the provision of diesel fuel would add a new requirement to the logistical support - not Vickers problem, but it was an issue the War Office would need to consider. The Vickers men pointed out that while they could produce a petrol version of the engine, which would actually be more powerful, it would require redesign to work on the Army Pool Petrol, which would take time, and more importantly require them to somehow fit in a much larger fuel tank. A more powerful, petrol, engine would be a much thirstier beast. And once all that had been done, the MEE would have to do testing on it. Still, if the Army insisted, they could do it, but they wouldn't recommend it. One thing they commented on favourably was the welding. Not so much because it reduced the tank weight, but they found when driving through muddy and wet tests that there was a lack of the little leaks that annoyed tank crews immensely.
The afternoon started with going over the first prototype A11. While not much larger than the A10*, and of a similar appearance, it was a lot heavier. The prototype, in mild steel, came in at nearly 24 tons, and the final model was expected to weight about 25 to 26. This was actually a little lighter than the A12 design that Vulcan were looking at, and given the thickness of armour required, this looked like being the weight for a well-protected infantry tank.
Considerable consternation occurred when they showed the gun mounting. While the turret was reasonably roomy, by tank standards, the gun was controlled vertically by a mechanical device rather than by the gunners shoulder. There was some mutterings about 'heresy', but the Vickers men pointed out that the gun - a throated out 6pdr - was far too heavy for manual control in the old way. Doing so would also reduce the available space, and that meant either a bigger - and considerably heavier - turret, or going down to a two-man version. There was also comment about the number of rounds carried - the tank currently held 70 dummy rounds, and that was felt to be quite low. It was suggested that if possible they would like this to be increased by 10-20 rounds. There were also a few raised eyebrows at the size and weight of the shells, they looked huge compared to the two and three pound rounds they were familiar with, but they would certainly pack the sort of HE or smoke load that a support tank needed, and a few HV anti-tank rounds probably wouldn't hurt to have around. The other thing they disliked was the vickers water-cooled machine guns. The one in the turret was bulky, the one in a ball mount on the glacis plate was even more so, and really looked vulnerable. The Vickers team agreed; they had considered a more modern, air-cooled machine gun - this would have given a little more space in the turret, and made it a little easier to build, and while a ball mounting was the only good way of adding an extra machine gun without compromising the frontal armour, the gun was really a lot bigger than they'd like. They had looked at a Czech machine gun as a possible substitute, but it used a different ammunition type and would require a redesign before it could be used. They offered to look into the problem again before the second prototype was delivered.
The suspension received some looks - after the issues with the Cruiser tank, the MEE were worried about having similar issues with throwing tracks. It was explained that because of the weight, they had gone back to a Hortsman design, and no lubricated tracks. They also felt that as the tank would be slower than the cruiser, such issues were less likely to occur. The MEE men nodded, and said they would test this comprehensively.
The engine was the Mk II diesel Kestrel, that Ricciardo had been developing for the production cruiser tank. The original conversion had fitted sleeve valves into the cylinders, which had worked well and meant the engine didn't have to be rebuilt, but had reduced the engine volume. For the pre-production version, which would have a new production line anyway, he had increased the size of the cylinders so that with sleeve valves inserted it was the same volume as the petrol Kestrel. This, plus a few minor modifications, had raised the power to 350hp. Vickers still thought this too low for the Infantry tank, and they were working on a modified naval diesel which would produce about 500hp. This wasn't quite ready yet, it was still undergoing testing, so they'd put the new Kestrel in to allow earlier evaluation of the tank, and expected to have the new diesel fitted in the second, armour plate, prototype to be delivered in a couple of months.
The following day, the MEE team set out to put the tank through its paces. There were a few driving issues - while the steering worked properly, the driver wasn't used to manoeuvring such a heavy vehicle, but these were sorted out fairly quickly. The thing that cause another round of raised eyebrows was the speed. With the engine flat out, the tank was timed at. Over rough ground, it reached 14mph, and on the test road they got it up to 24mph. Given the speed of the existing 'cruiser' tanks, this was considered amazing. Granted, Vickers admitted that the final version would be a bit heavier and so a little slower, but as far as the MEE were concerned this was very good indeed, enough so they were wondering about the bigger engine Vickers were considering. As they said goodbye to the men from Vickers, the MEE were already thinking on just what tests they could put the tank through. And how they would explain the lack of a gunner-supported gun.
The men of the MEE welcomed the team from Vickers again. While this was actually to deliver the first prototype A11 infantry tank, they spent the first morning brining them up to speed on the intensive testing they'd been doing on the A10*. Basically they were very pleased with it as a tank, with two caveats, the suspension/tracks and the engine. The tank had still thrown its tracks a few times during testing, but this had only happened once when they kept to the suggested speed limits, and this was considered acceptable. They were going to report that if any contract was placed, that Vickers would include an agreement to keep working on and improving this aspect of the tank. This the Vickers team were quite happy to verbally commit to. The second issue was the engine. The test team actually liked it, it had shown itself to be reliable and powerful. They had found a few minor issues regarding overheating at full power, but felt these could be quickly solved. As a Rolls-Royce derivative, they weren't terribly worried about its long term reliability, but the provision of diesel fuel would add a new requirement to the logistical support - not Vickers problem, but it was an issue the War Office would need to consider. The Vickers men pointed out that while they could produce a petrol version of the engine, which would actually be more powerful, it would require redesign to work on the Army Pool Petrol, which would take time, and more importantly require them to somehow fit in a much larger fuel tank. A more powerful, petrol, engine would be a much thirstier beast. And once all that had been done, the MEE would have to do testing on it. Still, if the Army insisted, they could do it, but they wouldn't recommend it. One thing they commented on favourably was the welding. Not so much because it reduced the tank weight, but they found when driving through muddy and wet tests that there was a lack of the little leaks that annoyed tank crews immensely.
The afternoon started with going over the first prototype A11. While not much larger than the A10*, and of a similar appearance, it was a lot heavier. The prototype, in mild steel, came in at nearly 24 tons, and the final model was expected to weight about 25 to 26. This was actually a little lighter than the A12 design that Vulcan were looking at, and given the thickness of armour required, this looked like being the weight for a well-protected infantry tank.
Considerable consternation occurred when they showed the gun mounting. While the turret was reasonably roomy, by tank standards, the gun was controlled vertically by a mechanical device rather than by the gunners shoulder. There was some mutterings about 'heresy', but the Vickers men pointed out that the gun - a throated out 6pdr - was far too heavy for manual control in the old way. Doing so would also reduce the available space, and that meant either a bigger - and considerably heavier - turret, or going down to a two-man version. There was also comment about the number of rounds carried - the tank currently held 70 dummy rounds, and that was felt to be quite low. It was suggested that if possible they would like this to be increased by 10-20 rounds. There were also a few raised eyebrows at the size and weight of the shells, they looked huge compared to the two and three pound rounds they were familiar with, but they would certainly pack the sort of HE or smoke load that a support tank needed, and a few HV anti-tank rounds probably wouldn't hurt to have around. The other thing they disliked was the vickers water-cooled machine guns. The one in the turret was bulky, the one in a ball mount on the glacis plate was even more so, and really looked vulnerable. The Vickers team agreed; they had considered a more modern, air-cooled machine gun - this would have given a little more space in the turret, and made it a little easier to build, and while a ball mounting was the only good way of adding an extra machine gun without compromising the frontal armour, the gun was really a lot bigger than they'd like. They had looked at a Czech machine gun as a possible substitute, but it used a different ammunition type and would require a redesign before it could be used. They offered to look into the problem again before the second prototype was delivered.
The suspension received some looks - after the issues with the Cruiser tank, the MEE were worried about having similar issues with throwing tracks. It was explained that because of the weight, they had gone back to a Hortsman design, and no lubricated tracks. They also felt that as the tank would be slower than the cruiser, such issues were less likely to occur. The MEE men nodded, and said they would test this comprehensively.
The engine was the Mk II diesel Kestrel, that Ricciardo had been developing for the production cruiser tank. The original conversion had fitted sleeve valves into the cylinders, which had worked well and meant the engine didn't have to be rebuilt, but had reduced the engine volume. For the pre-production version, which would have a new production line anyway, he had increased the size of the cylinders so that with sleeve valves inserted it was the same volume as the petrol Kestrel. This, plus a few minor modifications, had raised the power to 350hp. Vickers still thought this too low for the Infantry tank, and they were working on a modified naval diesel which would produce about 500hp. This wasn't quite ready yet, it was still undergoing testing, so they'd put the new Kestrel in to allow earlier evaluation of the tank, and expected to have the new diesel fitted in the second, armour plate, prototype to be delivered in a couple of months.
The following day, the MEE team set out to put the tank through its paces. There were a few driving issues - while the steering worked properly, the driver wasn't used to manoeuvring such a heavy vehicle, but these were sorted out fairly quickly. The thing that cause another round of raised eyebrows was the speed. With the engine flat out, the tank was timed at. Over rough ground, it reached 14mph, and on the test road they got it up to 24mph. Given the speed of the existing 'cruiser' tanks, this was considered amazing. Granted, Vickers admitted that the final version would be a bit heavier and so a little slower, but as far as the MEE were concerned this was very good indeed, enough so they were wondering about the bigger engine Vickers were considering. As they said goodbye to the men from Vickers, the MEE were already thinking on just what tests they could put the tank through. And how they would explain the lack of a gunner-supported gun.