The Forge of Weyland

[Astrodragon]

In OTL they wasted a lot of money on useless light tanks that no-one really wanted. Partly because they were the only ones available off the shelf, partly because they hadn't a clear idea of what they actually wanted an armoured division to do.

Now thanks to actually continuing to develop after 1934, they have an idea of where they want to be. Not a perfect one, but at least they have an idea. That actually makes a huge difference in the availability of tanks - as someone who's worked on government aerospace projects, nothing slows things down more than a ministry who doesn't have a clear idea and is constantly changing its mind. The treasury is always an issue, but again, knowing what you actually want to do helps - the treasury is reluctant to give you money if you cant explain what you intend to do with it. It also helps with some of the back seat drivers who wanted THEIR view of tanks done, even if it didn't make sense - with a defined and approved part in place, its harder for them to gain traction with unproven theories.

Of course, timeline wise we are just ending 1936. Big changes wont be seen for quite a while - designing and building tanks takes time - but they are coming. The tanks may be a bit better - again, having an idea of what you intend to do makes the engineers job easier, and more likely to end up with what you want, but no Centurian yet.

 

[Astrodragon]

Could see BEF being smaller, perhaps held back as a strategic reserve. Interesting possibilities.

It would actually have made excellent military sense, the highly mobile, motorised BEF would have been the obvious strategic reserve for the northern group of armies. Politically, though, not having the BEF in the line was a non-starter.

 

[Fred the Great]

It would actually have made excellent military sense, the highly mobile, motorised BEF would have been the obvious strategic reserve for the northern group of armies. Politically, though, not having the BEF in the line was a non-starter.

I don't necessarily disagree. That's definitely how it was seen. Though the narrative could have been changed, I think. The political-driven planning was an absolute mess. I think if you had levels of understanding about why the Germans won in 1940 the first would be something "they Blizkrieged around the folly that was the Maginot Line", while the next would be "the French gave the Belgians and the Dutch more consideration than they got in return".

 

[Derwit]

Sorry for this rambling post!

I might really enjoying this TL. The idea of trying to improve the British armoured forces without a big dollop of extra cash looks to be a rather interesting and difficult proposition.

Posters are turning their attention to the BoF. Perhaps this is a tad premature (but is understandable considering where the excellent Sir John Carden Lives TL is at the moment) however I'm curious where money can be saved within the army to buy new better toys.

Swapping light tanks for armoured cars is already within the story. At a conservative saving of between £2k to £3k per TTL armoured car, a reasonable 300 less light tanks saves a cool Million pounds! At £12k to £15k for a decent tank that gets us a whopping 80 new tanks! Clearly more savings will be needed but form where? Also what will the drivers for these changes be?

Further I feel that the changes to doctorine will mean that the infantry will not be deployed without anti-tank weapons so some of the savings need to be used for increasing 2 pounder production over OTL. I also suspect that the infantry will not willingly be deployed without armour close by. By this measure more independent Army Tank Brigades will be wanted over additional armoured division. These drivers could mean that the BEF is smaller but better prepaired for modern war over OTL.

I think that the economics are pointing towards an armoured wheeled battle taxi for the infantry similar to the Guy Lizard. While TTL's Bren/Universal Carrier will be a bit bigger and more useful.

 

[Atrophied]

And as i said earlier i think the most likely result is that there will be atleast a extra tank brigade compared otl . Maybe even more than one brigade . In otl there was a understrenght divison and a understrenght brigade . With another being deployed in later may wich fought in the south after the dunkirk evacuation but didnt acheive much i think. Here i think u will have atleast another tank brigade and maybe even another on top of that. And as said earlier , more carriers and stuff like that aswell . With hopefully abit better coordination between raf and the army .

There was about 1,4k light tanks produced during the rearmament i think if i remember things right mentioned earlier in topic. Some light tanks are needed but not that many.

 

[marathag]

Light tanks aren't a bad thing.
Calling a machine gun armed 5 tonner with 14mm armor a light tank, is pushing things.

While the UK was building the mk VIB in 1940, the US had been building 12 ton 25mm armored fast light tanks armed with a 37mm and almost more machine guns than could count, since 1938, and the Soviets the BT series, before that.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Light tanks aren't a bad thing.
Calling a machine gun armed 5 tonner with 14mm armor a light tank, is pushing things.

While the UK was building the mk VIB in 1940, the US had been building 12 ton 25mm armored fast light tanks armed with a 37mm and almost more machine guns than could count, since 1938, and the Soviets the BT series, before that.

In this timeline the British have already ordered the more effective Vickers E type B for use in Egypt so while some Mk VI's will still be built the logical choice is to order more of the 6 tonners (up armoured a bit and with a C.O.W gun) as a stopgap for the still to be designed medium tanks.

 

[Astrodragon]

5th January 1937, Bovington Camp

Vivian Lloyd had been looking at ideas for his new carrier over the last couple of months. He'd come up with most of the parts he'd need, mainly sourced from heavy lorries, and a suspension based on the light carrier, but there were a number of possible configurations. This was a rather different problem from that of a tank, where it was clear what it had to do and so the mechanical layout was pretty standard. While the Dragon had been used as an improvised carrier in exercises, they hadn't been designed for this. So he'd arranged to go down to Bovington and speak with some of the men who'd actually used them.

Given the time of year, everyone concerned was grateful that Lloyd was happy to have the discussion done indoors. The RTC had arranged a group of a couple of officers, as well as three experienced sergeants, as people who'd used the Dragon as a carrier, and were familiar with what had worked, and what really hadn't.

Lloyd gave them all a brief idea of what he was attempting to do, which impressed the men - they weren't used to the people who designed the kit actually coming down to get their views, and they thought it was a very good idea. They liked the ideas about the carriers mobility and protection, but they had a number of points for Lloyd to consider. The first of these being how they got out of the carrier. Obviously if it had the side protection Lloyd had described, side doors would be very difficult to arrange, and rather heavy as well. While the idea of overhead protection was popular - a number of the men had been 'killed' in exercises by mortar fire - it meant they couldn't get out over the sides either, and in any case the drop was really too high for a man carrying his combat gear. After some discussion, the favourite idea was that of an engineering sergeant, who suggested rear doors. This would also allow some sort of ramp so heavy equipment or supplies could be loaded or unloaded as needed, something he thought that the engineers at least would want to do.

Lloyd thought that was very probably the best option. It meant that the engine would be in front, rather than in the rear as in most current armoured vehicles, but that would have the advantage of it giving extra crew protection. A shot into the engine would obviously kill the vehicle, but hopefully would protect the men long enough for them to get out. The engineer had also asked if some of the carriers could be made without a top. He explained that some of the kit the engineers and supply people needed to move around was bulky, or an odd shape, and while being able to drag it around the country on tracks would be very nice, being able to fit in things that would be really difficult in a closed box would be a benefit, they didn't actually get shot at quite so much. Lloyd considered that, after all it would be a simple enough change, and the numbers of that type could easily be arranged after some experiments.

The men also asked if some sort of vision or ports could be cut into the sides. When Lloyd queried this, they pointed out that while being driven around in a closed box was really good on the battlefield, it had a number of disadvantages, especially when not on the battlefield. First, being able to look out would give them an idea of what was going on outside, which would be really helpful before having to disembark - this had been easy on the Dragon, but would be a problem on the new vehicle. Second, being able to see out would avoid the claustrophobic nature of the box, and allow some ventilation. Those seemed good ideas to Lloyd; some sort of armoured shutter or opening wouldn't be hard to incorporate. The men liked his idea of a hatch over the co-drivers seat, it would also give them an additional means of escape if the carrier was hit. It would also allow a man to stand up and see what was going on around them.

As he sat on the train on his way back, Lloyd was rather happy with how everything had gone. The men had been most helpful with providing the perspective of someone who'd actually be using his new vehicle, and he had in mind getting them to come up once the first mockup was done to see how it worked for them. He had sketched out some ideas as the train rattled along. His favourite was a compact box, driver and co-driver sitting in front, with an angled front for some added protection. The armour wouldn't be thick, so every little helped. He'd need some sort of protection for the driver, of course, the sort of fancy - and expensive - periscopes tanks used were probably more than was needed, but some sort of armoured shield or visor might work. Now he could get started on the detailed design and construction.

 

[Schlock]

If they're designing an infantry carrier variant without a roof for the Engineers, I'd say it would be pretty much inevitable that somebody is going to chuck a ML 3-inch mortar in the back of one for some organic artillery support for the troops in an exercise.

It might even speed up the development of the ML 4.2-inch mortar if they find the short range of the Mk 1 3-inch a problem.

 

[PMN1]

As he sat on the train on his way back, Lloyd was rather happy with how everything had gone. The men had been most helpful with providing the perspective of someone who'd actually be using his new vehicle, and he had in mind getting them to come up once the first mockup was done to see how it worked for them. He had sketched out some ideas as the train rattled along. His favourite was a compact box, driver and co-driver sitting in front, with an angled front for some added protection. The armour wouldn't be thick, so every little helped. He'd need some sort of protection for the driver, of course, the sort of fancy - and expensive - periscopes tanks used were probably more than was needed, but some sort of armoured shield or visor might work. Now he could get started on the detailed design and construction.

FV432/M113??

 

[andys]

FV432/M113??

Comparing the CVR(T) family with the Matilda, there are a lot of dimensional similarities. A front engined vehicle would be very useful for a whole range of types. The same goes for the FV430 series. A tank based on the Abbot design would be interesting - a very early Merkava-type layout.

 

[duckie]

FV432/M113??

Form follows Function (unless a commission is involved)

 

[Astrodragon]

FV432/M113??

More like a less capable and less well armoured Oxford carrier

 

[Astrodragon]

 

[diestormlie]

View attachment 612276

...That really does look like a FV432/M113 that went under a very low bridge.

 

[Rickshaw]

The vehicle sounds rather like the French Lorraine 37L which was developed pre-war. There were two APC versions developed as well but none manufactured before the fall of France. Now, if the British were to seek a license for their production...

​

 

[Astrodragon]

The vehicle sounds rather like the French Lorraine 37L which was developed pre-war. There were two APC versions developed as well but none manufactured before the fall of France. Now, if the British were to seek a license for their production...

​

Probably unlikely; of course, if the Rosbeeves have an APC, surely our French soldiers deserve the same?

 

[Rickshaw]

Probably unlikely; of course, if the Rosbeeves have an APC, surely our French soldiers deserve the same?

Oui! Oui! Of course they do. However, rather than have the British adopt a carrier which, well is a bit small and a bit light, why not have them adopt a vehicle a bit bigger and a bit better armoured and of course, a bit faster? The Germans liked the 37L. They converted many to SPGs. Why should everything go their way, hey?

 

[marathag]

Second, being able to see out would avoid the claustrophobic nature of the box, and allow some ventilation.

With lower vehicle ownership than the USA, motion sickness really was a thing for guys put into a closed box filled with exhaust fumes thats traveling over uneven ground.

 

[Astrodragon]

Which is why they are putting some holes in it