The Pale and the Purple Rose

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eliamartin65

eliamartin65

Kellan Sullivan said:
figure the accusation of witchcraft could probably be levelled at both stock brokers and psychologists nowadays as well. Not sure why Philippa Gregory has such an obsession with Jacquetta's powers and "Great-Grandma Water Goddess" when Jacquetta- having been at three different courts- Burgundian, Dutch and French- before she married Bedford and survived another two- Lancastrian and York- probably had a decent grasp of the political reality/situation. IMO the reliance on the "witchcraft" trope like Gregory does is simply lazy storytelling, because it diminishes that the woman might've genuinely been a savvy political player in her own right.

After all, look at another woman charged with witchcraft by her political enemies: Anne Boleyn. She was cultured, intelligent, talented, politically savvy (or at least, knew how to play the game on her own terms), but no series of books suggesting that she was genuinely a witch. Because, after all, to do that would be to undermine the great-grandmommy of feminist icons- Gloriana herself- by suggesting that her birth was "more foul than fair".

I'll admit that I'm hazy on the history, but a "contemporary" of Jacquetta's also accused of witchcraft was Fernando el Catolico's mother. I'm not sure why they accused her of this when her Jewish blood would've been enough to make her a target. But again, a woman who was beautiful and obviously intelligent enough to not allow herself to become a king's mistress (not sure about her political or cultural talents). The only difference between Juana and Jacquetta is that Juana may have genuinely had a hand in poisoning her stepson (others point the finger of Carlos IV's death at Louis XI or Juan II). I've never heard that there's a fascination with Juana being a witch in literature
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100% agreed!
 

isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
figure the accusation of witchcraft could probably be levelled at both stock brokers and psychologists nowadays as well. Not sure why Philippa Gregory has such an obsession with Jacquetta's powers and "Great-Grandma Water Goddess" when Jacquetta- having been at three different courts- Burgundian, Dutch and French- before she married Bedford and survived another two- Lancastrian and York- probably had a decent grasp of the political reality/situation. IMO the reliance on the "witchcraft" trope like Gregory does is simply lazy storytelling, because it diminishes that the woman might've genuinely been a savvy political player in her own right.

After all, look at another woman charged with witchcraft by her political enemies: Anne Boleyn. She was cultured, intelligent, talented, politically savvy (or at least, knew how to play the game on her own terms), but no series of books suggesting that she was genuinely a witch. Because, after all, to do that would be to undermine the great-grandmommy of feminist icons- Gloriana herself- by suggesting that her birth was "more foul than fair".

I'll admit that I'm hazy on the history, but a "contemporary" of Jacquetta's also accused of witchcraft was Fernando el Catolico's mother. I'm not sure why they accused her of this when her Jewish blood would've been enough to make her a target. But again, a woman who was beautiful and obviously intelligent enough to not allow herself to become a king's mistress (not sure about her political or cultural talents). The only difference between Juana and Jacquetta is that Juana may have genuinely had a hand in poisoning her stepson (others point the finger of Carlos IV's death at Louis XI or Juan II). I've never heard that there's a fascination with Juana being a witch in literature.
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Too true…
 

Kellan Sullivan

eliamartin65 said:
Why, though?
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because we're already at February/March 1472, Margaret is born in April 1472, and if Liz was in sanctuary, that meant no sleepovers. Even if Edward was her husband. Plus, the conception of OTL Maggie would be in the second week of July 1471 (assuming she was full-term) when Edward IV was up north (near York) fighting at the time, with no time to slip down to London for a quickie. Ergo, no Maggie.

Also, if I let her live, I need to find a husband for her. And I'm already struggling for grooms for Edward IV's surviving daughters.

Lastly, it's to cut down on the amount of people named Margaret (Margaret d'Anjou, Margaret Beaufort, the other Margaret of York in Burgundy, Margaret Nevill, etc etc etc)
 
eliamartin65

eliamartin65

Kellan Sullivan said:
because we're already at February/March 1472, Margaret is born in April 1472, and if Liz was in sanctuary, that meant no sleepovers. Even if Edward was her husband. Plus, the conception of OTL Maggie would be in the second week of July 1471 (assuming she was full-term) when Edward IV was up north (near York) fighting at the time, with no time to slip down to London for a quickie. Ergo, no Maggie.

Also, if I let her live, I need to find a husband for her. And I'm already struggling for grooms for Edward IV's surviving daughters.

Lastly, it's to cut down on the amount of people named Margaret (Margaret d'Anjou, Margaret Beaufort, the other Margaret of York in Burgundy, Margaret Nevill, etc etc etc)
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Noted XD
 
Svatba v Máji, do Roka Máry [1] New
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    • Kellan Sullivan

    Soundtrack: Leu Chansoneta

    April 1472

    *Milan* *we see the city once more en fête for the arrival of the newly appointed nuncio to Prague, Rinaldo Orsini* *the seventeen-year-old nuncio is received with all due honours by the suffragan bishop, Giovanni Arcimboldo [2]*

    *cut to Orsini out hunting with the duke, Giuliano de Medici, Manuele Palaiologos and Francesco d'Este* *clearly d'Este and Giuliano haven't kissed and made up yet, since both are studiously ignoring one another*

    *cut to the four riding out of Milan in procession*
    Duke of Milan: *to his retainer as he watches them leave* thank God my part in this farce is over. Another week and I'd have gone as mad as the king of England.

    *cut to them making camp* *night*
    Giuliano: so the pope didn't even give you a crown to crown the king with, Rinaldo? That seems...disappointing. We go all that way and you must just say *solemn tone, using his wine cup to gesture* in nomine patris, et filii et spiritu sancti. Amen
    Manuele: the Bohemian kings already have a crown. No need for the pope to send another one.
    Giuliano: but it was sullied by heretics. You heard Doge Mocenigo. When they crowned King George.
    Manuele: heretics touching a crown does not take away the sanctity of the crown. One day, when my brother is crowned as caesar in Constantinople, it will make little difference if there is truth to what I have heard the sultan himself has a fancy to wearing it. It will be blessed and deemed purified. [3]
    Giuliano: *loudly* ah, our own sultan makes his entry *looks at Francesco d'Este who's clearly irritated by having to join them*
    Rinaldo: shouldn't he be shorter? I have heard the sultan is short. Or at least, in a turban and twirly-whirly shoes.
    Giuliano, Manuele: *laughing as Francesco sits down huffily*
    Manuele: *chuckling* well, he certainly behaves as if he has the sultan's scimitar up his arse.
    Francesco: *muttering* I cannot believe that you dragged me with on this...this...goose chase.
    Giuliano: it's as much a sacrifice for us as it is for you, don't worry.
    Rinaldo: besides, from what Bishop Arcimboldi told me, when Cardinal Nardini returns from Burgundy, you will be an embarrassment to the duke. And we all saw what he did to your uncle, Duke Borso, when it was inconvenient for him.
    Francesco: they were the king of France's allies.
    Rinaldo: then if the duke didn't, the king did. I have heard that he is in the habit of removing...obstacles. Look at how he poisoned the comte d'Armagnac after they captured Lectoure.
    Francesco: that is justified. The Armagnacs are no friends to the king of France.
    Rinaldo: was it justified that he poisoned the countess to kill the child in her womb as well? What crime did an unborn child commit to be worthy of such a justification. Per the letters from Cardinal Borgia, it is only a stroke of good fortune that the countess herself was saved.
    Francesco: Borgia probably poisoned her himself. I've heard that he cavorts with all sorts of whores, poisoners and necromancers-
    Rinaldo: Cardinal Borgia is many things, Signore Francesco, I assure you, but not even his worst enemies in Rome can accuse him of being an unnatural father.
    Giuliano: *laughing* just a natural one. He has three bastards already-
    Rinaldo: by Roman standards, that makes him practically as chaste as the Virgin Mary.
    Francesco: so aside from this stupid coronation that you, Medici, are willing to serve as an errand boy, what is Orsini's reason. He crowns the king and then?
    Rinaldo: not just crowning the king.
    *all three perk up*
    Rinaldo: I am to continue on to Krakow- to the king of Poland- to deliver a dispensation. Two actually.
    Francesco: to what end?
    Rinaldo: the king wishes for his son and heir to marry one of the marquis of Mantua's daughters [4]-
    Francesco: what concern is that of the pope?
    Rinaldo: they are cousins through the lady's mother, the princess of Bavaria, and the queen of Poland's grandmother. Not to mention that the marquis' wife is the niece of the elector of Brandenburg who was formerly engaged to the king's sister. His Majesty is erring on the side of caution as he wishes for no accusations of illegitimacy to be made.
    Giuliano: *lying back* there is a large part of me grateful that we Medici are not bothered by such trivialities.
    Francesco: *witheringly* yes...you insist on riding the finest horses or having dogs with pedigrees, but when it comes to your children...you marry anywhere.
    Giuliano: *eyes half closed* at least we marry our women, Franceschetto. Not like you d'Este. How many bastards did your father and grandfather leave, anyway? It seems they had them like most men have pets.
    Rinaldo: *raising voice before another argument can erupt* there's another reason as well. The request arrived from the king of France as I was about to leave Rome.
    Manuele: and that is?
    Rinaldo: since Madame de Chambes has...gone to wherever we go when we die. Heaven, hell, purgatory...a hole in the ground that leads to become food for worms- his Majesty is most eager to prevent his brother from once more entering into an..."unsuitable attachment".
    Manuele: I thought he is to marry King George's daughter?
    Rinaldo: she is the "unsuitable attachment" of which the king speaks.
    *the other three perk up*
    Rinaldo: the queen of France is with child once more. The king hopes for a boy, but should worst come to worst and it is either a girl or stillborn- like so many of his children have been- then that would mean that the king of Bohemia is a heart-beat away from the throne. He feels that his brother would do better marrying elsewhere. For the undesirable event that he should be called to the throne of France.

    *fade to black*

    [1] Czech saying that roughly equates to the English "marry in May, rue the day". It warns that a girl who marries in May will either be dead or a widow within the year (at least that's my understanding of it). While it is only April, the fact of the matter remains they still need to get to Prague for the coronation
    [2] why Arcimboldo and not the actual bishop? Because the archbishop of Milan, Stefano Nardini, is currently scurrying between Charles the Bold and Louis XI. Charles despised Nardini, feeling him too biased towards Louis
    [3] I have no idea if this is true. But these aren't theologians discussing it
    [4] specifically Barbara or Paola Gonzaga. Casimir IV was looking at both as a potential bride for St. Casimir around this time OTL
     
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