The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
So Ioannis becomes Prince of Achaea iure uxorem I guess. First stone of a Ionian sea empire. Just miss the marriage of Thomas of Epirus to a daughter of Alexandros to complete this Vatatzes coup de main on Greece.
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It is a little worrying that Maria was childless OTL for the future of the dynasty but that could be butterflied away.
The principality of Achaea vs the despotate of Morea soon on your screens. Let's see how that will go when the Emperor of Rome demands the whole of Morea from Vatatzes. That is of course if he has the guts which is kind of up in the air with the current emperor. So another path of expansion is opened and maybe even another vassalage to another state. Although I would argue that consolidation and rebuilding after 20 years of war is the best thing for now at least for a year or two.
What an excellent update!
The peace treaty as it is, is the best both sides could hope for - the fact that the two leaders had struck a friendship in their youth must have helped as well.
Morea can become a great source of power and wealth for the Despotate. I doubt that Vatatzes would be content to be a distant overlord and I doubt that the French barons would like a more involved ruler. It won't matter- Vatatzes has the best army in Europe of its size and lots of capable commanders that would be eager for new conquests. After all, the Catalans are a huge asset and they cannot be sustained as a standing army for long. Nail, meet hammer.
@Lascaris a couple of questions: Has Charles given up also the overlordship of Cephalonia as well? Has Philip of Taranto received the overlordship of Aetolia or is it butterflied ?
The peace treaty as it is, is the best both sides could hope for - the fact that the two leaders had struck a friendship in their youth must have helped as well.
Morea can become a great source of power and wealth for the Despotate. I doubt that Vatatzes would be content to be a distant overlord and I doubt that the French barons would like a more involved ruler. It won't matter- Vatatzes has the best army in Europe of its size and lots of capable commanders that would be eager for new conquests. After all, the Catalans are a huge asset and they cannot be sustained as a standing army for long. Nail, meet hammer.
@Lascaris a couple of questions: Has Charles given up also the overlordship of Cephalonia as well? Has Philip of Taranto received the overlordship of Aetolia or is it butterflied ?
Achaea/Morea would be Ioannis' realm through his wife, not Alexandros'. As far as his father is concerned, that's another opportunity to train his son in the art of government, and prepare the region for its future integration into the Despotate, once Ioannis succeeds his father in Syracuse.
I'll laughvery hard if Ioannis ends up a vassal of Charles, Frederick, and the Byzantine emperor once he succeeds his father lmao
Well, given the times, it won't be surprising nor unusual for that kind of political and legal mess to happen ...
Of course that their legal status would be different for the Westerners and for the Emperor... Though, we still don't know, Constantinople reaction to the recents developments nor to the rise of the near exiled Vatastez in Sicily, to the prominence...
Without mention that, or so, I'd suppose, that the ones in their ancestry homeland in Anatolia, both to the flux of news from those that had migrated to Scilly and, in the near future, to have, once more a Vatatzes ruling in a part of the Empire... Would, probably, stimulate even more, the migration to the Despotate.
So nice of Charles to give Vatatzes a foothold back in Greece. How the Romans of Sicily manage to expanded their influence there in the coming years will be interesting to read.
I think what the zatatzes controlled areas are still majority Greek at this point, griko populations still live in those areas otl and Greek immigration into these areas ittl would make those areas permanently Greek ittl.
I think we would see the empire have to fight for the entire of morea, and considering the Vatatzes has a powerful navy and (I think) a population who wants the Vatatzes as their rulers.
You have to remember that the Greeks in general like the Vatatzes and they do want to keep that reputation. If Maria does a bad job in governing Achaea that won't do.
Andronikos II will probably shit bricks. There’s no way he or any of the factions in Greece itself could raise a force similar in both size and quality to the one commanded by Alexandros at the Battle of Castrovillari.
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Latin Norms is your father usurped the throne from my nephew, hence I am the real emperor. Fuck off the throne or I bring my army.
If we want to get technical Alexios Philanthropenos was the architect of the victory... of course it hardly hurts that he's personally loyal to his brother in law and vice versa.
That would be spoilers would it not?
Ioannis or rather his bride has been given the claim to the title for certain.
The whole thing has every prospect of being... interesting. House Vatatzes was given the claim to the principality, nnot least because it was the cheapest thing Charles could give in dowry for his daughter and to secure the release of his son... while also potentially cultivating Alexandros as HIS ally for the future. This leaves Ioannis with actually enforcing his claim, over Isabel and Philip of Savoy, the Achaean barons, notoriously unruly at the best of times, and some very grumpy locals oppressed by all of the above, who may welcome a Greek ruler for a change but were NOT part of the Lascarid realms. Then add for added fun Andronicus poor generals in Mystra who are supposed to liberate Achaea. Has the despot just accomplished that? Or not?
It depends. Calabria and Apulia had large Greek populations, their last remnants exist to this day. So did eastern Sicily including the cities, Messina was the centre of Greek influence in Sicily apparently and the last reports of Greek speaking towns in the interior of Sicily are in the early 19th century, 1812 to be exact. What actually did in Greek in Sicily was ironically enough Aragonese rule, while before them you get for example legal documents written in Greek and separate lawas frex for dowries for the Greek population, this stops under Frederick III who also put in the later part of his reign pressure of the Greeks, Jews and Muslims of the island to convert, particularly after Arnau de Vilanova convinced Frederick in 1305 that he... was god's chosen champion to purify the church.
For Sicily in particular to quote Epstein's An Island for itself
"Val Demone included several distinct but overlapping cultural and ethnic areas. Up to the thirteenth century, when large ethnic influxes came to an end, Greeks characterized the north-east around Messina, the centre was scattered with Latin populations, and the west may have had stronger Muslim penetration."
Now conveniently that's the very area under despotate control, with the Greeks getting for a change the support of the state after 1282.
Speaking of possible unintended consequences Philanthropenos and Vatatzes were witness to Almogovars beating off knights. On foot while relatively lightly armed. And for a change they are the sole Byzantine rulers/generals around not to be broke.
I'm inclined to say no. Richard Orsini is still around as count palatine of Zakynthos and Cephalonia and by all accounts he was a pretty capable man.
But first he needs to take it. Both he and Maria are pretty young for that matter.
That could get interesting when Frederick or the Angevins get ideas about resuming the war. Who has the right to expect house Vatatzes to fight by their side?
Constantinople has some erm urgent problems following the defeat of the imperial army at Bapheus and Andronicus excellent idea to economize on the army which makes what should be a minor loss much more of an issue. In OTL Andronicus embassy west to help went to... Messina. And the Catalan company sent east under the auspices of the kingdom of Sicily, sorry Trinakria, which was on reasonably friendly terms with the empire.
On one hand the principality is, potentially somewhat of a poisoned chalice. On the other if it divides the loyalties of Vatatzes and potentially switches them over to the Angevin side in the future so much the better...
I would say that the Angevin are proving themselves as far more chill allies while Frederick had broken his feudal obligations when he told Alexandros that Calabria is his own problem. I would also say that legally speaking, there’s plenty of justifications to stick with the Angevins instead of Frederick. The man himself signed away his rights to Sicily. He would be an oath breaker if he were to go to war again.If we want to get technical Alexios Philanthropenos was the architect of the victory... of course it hardly hurts that he's personally loyal to his brother in law and vice versa.
That would be spoilers would it not?
Ioannis or rather his bride has been given the claim to the title for certain.
The whole thing has every prospect of being... interesting. House Vatatzes was given the claim to the principality, nnot least because it was the cheapest thing Charles could give in dowry for his daughter and to secure the release of his son... while also potentially cultivating Alexandros as HIS ally for the future. This leaves Ioannis with actually enforcing his claim, over Isabel and Philip of Savoy, the Achaean barons, notoriously unruly at the best of times, and some very grumpy locals oppressed by all of the above, who may welcome a Greek ruler for a change but were NOT part of the Lascarid realms. Then add for added fun Andronicus poor generals in Mystra who are supposed to liberate Achaea. Has the despot just accomplished that? Or not?
It depends. Calabria and Apulia had large Greek populations, their last remnants exist to this day. So did eastern Sicily including the cities, Messina was the centre of Greek influence in Sicily apparently and the last reports of Greek speaking towns in the interior of Sicily are in the early 19th century, 1812 to be exact. What actually did in Greek in Sicily was ironically enough Aragonese rule, while before them you get for example legal documents written in Greek and separate lawas frex for dowries for the Greek population, this stops under Frederick III who also put in the later part of his reign pressure of the Greeks, Jews and Muslims of the island to convert, particularly after Arnau de Vilanova convinced Frederick in 1305 that he... was god's chosen champion to purify the church.
For Sicily in particular to quote Epstein's An Island for itself
"Val Demone included several distinct but overlapping cultural and ethnic areas. Up to the thirteenth century, when large ethnic influxes came to an end, Greeks characterized the north-east around Messina, the centre was scattered with Latin populations, and the west may have had stronger Muslim penetration."
Now conveniently that's the very area under despotate control, with the Greeks getting for a change the support of the state after 1282.
Speaking of possible unintended consequences Philanthropenos and Vatatzes were witness to Almogovars beating off knights. On foot while relatively lightly armed. And for a change they are the sole Byzantine rulers/generals around not to be broke.
I'm inclined to say no. Richard Orsini is still around as count palatine of Zakynthos and Cephalonia and by all accounts he was a pretty capable man.
But first he needs to take it. Both he and Maria are pretty young for that matter.
That could get interesting when Frederick or the Angevins get ideas about resuming the war. Who has the right to expect house Vatatzes to fight by their side?
Constantinople has some erm urgent problems following the defeat of the imperial army at Bapheus and Andronicus excellent idea to economize on the army which makes what should be a minor loss much more of an issue. In OTL Andronicus embassy west to help went to... Messina. And the Catalan company sent east under the auspices of the kingdom of Sicily, sorry Trinakria, which was on reasonably friendly terms with the empire.
On one hand the principality is, potentially somewhat of a poisoned chalice. On the other if it divides the loyalties of Vatatzes and potentially switches them over to the Angevin side in the future so much the better...
How latinized are the Laskarids as of now? Many of their own vassals, soldiers and people are Latins. Their new family members are also Latin, and they have been governing through a Latin framework. Now that a peace has been signed, it wouldn’t hurt to suck up to the pope a little by adhering the union of churches. It makes far more sense for the Laskarids to do the union of churches thing than the Palaiologos, since the Laskarid goal should be to gain legitimacy from both Latin and Greek subjects.
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I hope not, especially if the Laskarids gets more involved in the East. The Romans (and the heir of Hohenstaufen) should not submitted themselves to the pope (which is what the popes meant by "union of the churches"). And with the pope about to get humiliated by the Capetians, there is even less of a reason to do so.
A degree of submission to the popes is very much a necessity if you want their help.The orthodox church, rulers and aristocracy of this period are extremely inept and they can’t be a major source of support for Alexandros. The MC‘s territories are meanwhile situated in the Catholic sphere of influence and as long as the Laskarids remain ‘schismatic’,he is painting a massive ‘shoot me’ symbol on his back while he ventures into Greece. I think the chance of Frederick and Charles or their descendants going after Alexandros to partition his territory is much higher than them going after each other at this point in time. Best way to avoid it would be to do the union of the Church thing—submit symbolically to the Pope but try to remain as Orthodox in outlook as possible. If Alexandros can turn the pope into an ally by portraying himself as a guy who could bring the East back into the fold and fight back the Muslims, he could probably get a lot of monetary and military support.
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I think it's possible that he does although I do feel he gains nothing other than pissing Alexandros off which is not a good thing for Frederick. If anything attacking somewhere else would make more sense. Maybe islands?
I don't think the Lascarids are that Latinised at this point. After all Alexandros is running the ship and the important members that run the show are mostly Greek. If anything it'd be something the second or third generation Lascarids have to deal with.
On the church Alexandros at least has to guarantee the right of catholics and follow it well enough for the rival lords to not use it as a causus Belli. I could see his descendants converting but part of the identity of the Greeks and the ERE is their own church in Constantinople and unless the Turks take over the city for long enough I don't see it changing. If anything his descendants will always have to walk on a tightrope until something gives.
On Frederick and charles' descendants attacking the despotate I don't think it's viable at all. Frederick's next descendant is a weak king and the next king after that is a child ruler, and I could see the Vatatzes take advantage of it all and claim the crown for themselves as the civil war occured. Meanwhile I could see Charles' descendants trying to take back the mainland portions but they also only get like one good king before things fall apart. If the Vatatzes keep their succession straight and focus on developing their lands they would already be able to take the throne of Sicily and Naples through the marriage of Mary. If anything I think the Aragonese and French would be the main problem as they have a powerful enough navy to fuck with the vatatzes.
If they are taking over the two Sicilies then conversion is a must. Last thing you want is the Aragonese and the French invading with Papal support like you said. You need recognition from these two kingdoms in order for Sicily to remain a stable,safe rear base where you can take over the Balkans and Anatolia with its’ resources. I think that Papal money and legitimacy is well worth a mass here.The Laskarids experienced first hand how powerful Papal money could be, and it could be theirs if they sucked up to the Pope a bit. There’s really nothing that the Orthodox church could offer which the Lascarids cannot take with money and men offered by the Latin Church.Besides, the empire is in such a shit form at this point in time that it’s highly necessary to clean the house through force of arms gained from the Latins than more compromises with the Orthodox Church and the local aristocracy. It is absurd that the Palaiologos could barely muster 2,000 men to fight the Turks in Anatolia despite still having a sizeable part of Greece under their control.It is every sign that the state institutions of the empire has completely been eroded by the corrupt aristocrats.
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