The eagle's left head

What‘s up with this forum’s obsession with Valentina Visconti?She’s proposed as a bride in a lot of timelines around this period.

BTW, does Louis of Hungary also have a son problem like OTL?


simple, the obsession for the young Valentina Visconti is based on the thought ( wrong for me ) that her family will become extinct within 2/3 generations as happened in Otl, and therefore whoever marries her would end up inheriting Milan ( but I believe it is it is very unlikely that the Viscontis in general or Gian Galeazzo in particular have the same end as Otl ) in fact, in reality I don't want a war similar to the one that is destroying Naples in TL , in Northern Italy to happen for an elusive legacy that probably won't even happen, it's better to leave the rest of the peninsula in peace
 
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Well, if the LD gets a hold of the whole kingdom of Sicily(Hauteville style), they will look into the northern part to influence things. Everyone has OTL, Hauteville, Anjou, Aragon
 
We see the beginning of the end of venetian naval power.

Joanna has to fight just to keep part of her kingdom and cannot be a realistic threat. Aragon has to deal with the War of the Two Pedros. Da Carrara and the Patriarch are there. Lajos is not to be taken lightly and I doubt the Viscontis will risk war with Hungary and Sicily just to save Venice.

Speaking of the Revolt of St. Titus, at this point 10 Greeks are joining the Council of Feudatories. The delegation sent originally to Genoa included -or perhaps was headed by- Leonardo Gradenigo, an apostate Venetian turned orthodox monk, who seems to had a good relationship not just with the Greek noblemen but also the peasantry as well. it would make sense that Gradenigo would seek assistance from Syracuse rather than Genoa. It would also be more palatable to the Venetian Cretans, since they would avoid asking assistance from their old arch-enemy.

Luchino dal Verme's expedition against the Commune of Crete included 1,000 cavalry and 2,000 infantry (not to mention 33 galleys). Even so, it took until the end of 1365 to secure all major towns and fortresses and the resistance inland continued until 1368. Moreover, it seems that the powerful Kallergis clan continued to be influential, with Leo Kallergis residing in Venice in 1382 and Matteo Kallergis becoming a member of the Great Council of Venice. I think it indicates that there was a political solution and the Kallergis family was not crushed in the battlefield.

But what forces can Aquileia, Padua and Hungary send against Venice? In the War of Chioggia, da Carrara led 24,000 soldiers. It seems that hungarian participation was modest.
 
Well, if the LD gets a hold of the whole kingdom of Sicily(Hauteville style), they will look into the northern part to influence things. Everyone has OTL, Hauteville, Anjou, Aragon

this is true, but there is a "subtle" difference between the Angevins, Stauffen, Haunteville and Aragonese of Otl compared to Syracuse TTL, namely that the latter mainly focuses on a political-cultural mix that takes heavily inspiration from Byzantium ( religion included ) and this will be an important limit for the expansion in the rest of the peninsula, already the Angevin Campania and Abruzzo would prefer to end up divided between local Latin rulers rather than be governed by a Greek-Sicilian who in the best of cases would be considered a schismatic ( as well as representing the main enemy who they have fought for decades ), so the direct influence the Lascarids can have on the rest of the peninsula will be significantly reduced compared to their counterparts in Otl, so I hardly see them trying to push themselves to conquer the region ( I'm talking about the territories still in the hands of Louis and Giovanna ), without a more than valid reason ( rather they would prefer it to end up in friendly hands or if they really want to keep it under control they would hand it over to one of their cadet branches, of the Latin faith, so as to avoid further conflicts with the rest of the Italian potentates, including the Papacy )
 
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so the direct influence the Lascarids can have on the rest of the peninsula will be significantly reduced compared to their counterparts in Otl, so I hardly see them trying to push themselves to conquer the region ( I'm talking about the territories still in the hands of Louis and Giovanna ), without a more than valid reason ( rather they would prefer it to end up in friendly hands or if they really want to keep it under control they would hand it over to one of their cadet branches, of the Latin faith, so as to avoid further conflicts with the rest of the Italian potentates, including the Papacy )

It is a very valid argument. I really don't see them annexing more of Italy other the rest of Apulia.

Having said that, I think that their indirect influence will be significantly greater than the OTL post-robertian Angevin and Aragonese Regno. Sicily might have started as a hybrid of the hohenstaufen and byzantine systems, but due to the very specific circumstances has evolved in something quite distinct: the most centralized state in Europe, equivalent to its 17th century counterparts. At the same time, they are posed to become the Mediterranean's dominant naval power. Overall, the Sicilians will be able to punch above their weight and punch hard. They will also be very tightly integraded with the italian trade system. That's why I think the other italian (and non-italian) states will actively seek them out as allies or in the case of small political entities (the signori of Romagna) as protectors to help them maintain their autonomy.

There are also a lot of chances that due to dynastic marriages - as you mentioned, the Lascarids might inherit other lordships as well, as the Palaiologoi did with Monferrato. Of course, I doubt that the Lascarids would transform or even try to transform e.g. Savoy into a basilean/uniate realm. The Palaiologian Monferrato provides a good example of what might take place, although a cadet branch might try to centralize somehow the new holding. Even so, it provides a lot of incentive for further diplomatic integration and alliances, same as the Habsburgs and the Bourbons did.
 
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It is a very valid argument. I really don't see them annexing more of Italy other the rest of Apulia.

Having said that, I think that their indirect influence will be significantly greater than the OTL post-robertian Angevin and Aragonese Regno. Sicily might have started as a hybrid of the hohenstaufen and byzantine systems, but due to the very specific circumstances has evolved in something quite distinct: the most centralized state in Europe, equivalent to its 17th century counterparts. At the same time, they are posed to become the Mediterranean's dominant naval power. Overall, the Sicilians will be able to punch above their weight and punch hard. They will also be very tightly integraded with the italian trade system. That's why I think the other italian (and non-italian) states will actively seek them out as allies or in the case of small political entities (the signori of Romagna) as protectors to help them maintain their autonomy.

There are also a lot of chances that due to dynastic marriages - as you mentioned, the Lascarids might inherit other lordships as well, as the Palaiologoi did with Monferrato. Of course, I doubt that the Lascarids would transform or even try to transform e.g. Savoy into a basilean/uniate realm. The Palaiologian Monferrato provides a good example of what might take place, although a cadet branch might try to centralize somehow the new holding. Even so, it provides a lot of incentive for further diplomatic integration and alliances, same as the Habsburgs and the Bourbons did.

Oh speaking of the Paleologos / Aleramici of Monferrato, with the weakening of the Angevins and their ability to project power in northern Italy, this means that the Marquises had at least 50 years easier than in Otl ( where even after Theodore I, the Angevins and the their allies went to war with Monferrato for the control of important strongholds in southern Piedmont - Lombardy, such as Asti for example ) this would potentially allow Monferrato to be in a better position than Otl ( limiting the expansion of Savoy, also thanks to the Milanese and Genoese support, and possibly being able to exploit the political chaos in Lunigiana to expand or at least steal land from Saluzzo ) now this would be interesting to see
 
this is true, but there is a "subtle" difference between the Angevins, Stauffen, Haunteville and Aragonese of Otl compared to Syracuse TTL, namely that the latter mainly focuses on a political-cultural mix that takes heavily inspiration from Byzantium ( religion included ) and this will be an important limit for the expansion in the rest of the peninsula, already the Angevin Campania and Abruzzo would prefer to end up divided between local Latin rulers rather than be governed by a Greek-Sicilian who in the best of cases would be considered a schismatic ( as well as representing the main enemy who they have fought for decades ), so the direct influence the Lascarids can have on the rest of the peninsula will be significantly reduced compared to their counterparts in Otl, so I hardly see them trying to push themselves to conquer the region ( I'm talking about the territories still in the hands of Louis and Giovanna ), without a more than valid reason ( rather they would prefer it to end up in friendly hands or if they really want to keep it under control they would hand it over to one of their cadet branches, of the Latin faith, so as to avoid further conflicts with the rest of the Italian potentates, including the Papacy )
In OTL the kingdom of Neapolis was later ruled for 300 years under the reign of former enemies, so I kinda don´t see the problem. As long as theiy are vassals to the crown, they are somewhat excused(when your liege fights in northern italy(Robert I.), then he doesn´t expect you to interfere with him; of course, the LD has/had it´s eyes on several other regions, so that is understandable
 
The same year Murad would lead his army against the Karamanids and the beys of Ankara.
*furiously noting that the Karamanids and ankarans border the Ottomans... for the 1370 map*
Next map will include the Iberian Peninsula in its entirety, and Interior Anatolia! Along with updated border changes...
Crete, August 1363

Venice was not blind to the Hungarian threat and was promptly taking measures to meet it. But the measures would violently backfire when additional taxation in Crete would lead to revolt of not just the Greek Cretans under Ioannis Kallergis but also the Venetian colonists under Marco Gradenigo who would proclaim the island the independent republic of Saint Titus...
Hm... Really hope that Alexandros deals with Venice quickly, as the battle of the Maritsa is closing quicker than expected; If the Republic of St Titus can be integrated into the BS&H quickly, with Euboea, Modon and Coron being sieged down, they'd only require a decisive naval victory, and who controls almost the entirety of the Ionian Sea?? The only drawback is that I wonder if Cyprus will be drawn in as well? With a fleet entering the Aegean from the East and West, Alexandros will have another two front Naval war to deal with as his Father did.

But long-term thinking, being able to secure Cyprus, Euboea and Crete really would secure the BS&H as the dominant Mediterranean Naval Power, as well as securing the Center for Alexandros to finally focus on the Ottomans who at that point will most likely be outside the walls of Thessaloniki...
 
We see the beginning of the end of venetian naval power.
Someone should start with a reasonable estimate of how many galleys Venice can actually deploy before going into proclamations of the end of its naval power. We know Venice deployed 33 galleys against the Cretan revolt. Presumably they had additional naval deployments at the time. In the next war with Genoa they had 48 galleys at Chioggia after losing 15 more and over 3,000 men at Pola. Which means a total force around 63 galleys after losing Dalmatia and fighting a second war with Hungary.

Which mind you isn't all that different from Venetian deployments in the war of the Straits. The Venetians are sending 20 galleys in Sardinia to ling up with the Aragonese, have another 35 at the disaster in Sapienza and probably 29-41 depending on the actual size of the Aragonese fleet, of which they lose up to 14 in the battle of the Bosporus. Which gives us again... between 57 and 69 galleys.

Oh by the way it also gives us an estimate of the Aragonese fleet at no less than 38-50 galleys...
 
Successive Hungarian campaigns in 1257, 1358, 1360, and 1361 had crushed what little recovery had been made in the aftermath of the peace treaty with Sicily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the november 1353 entry stipulated a "ten year truce", not a peace treaty. Granted, it's almost as good as one, but it's no formal legal settlement to the conflict, just an agreement to freeze it along the lines on the ground.
I may have not bothered to note this up if not for the expiration of the truce coming fast; the last entry was August 1363, that's just two-three months before the truce with Naples formally expires. Coincidence? Misdirection ? 🧐😉

Seemingly Joanna can barely afford to defend against the Hungarians, so a resumption of the war against Sicily? Not plausible at first glance. Now, if Venice is involved, does that change ?
 
Someone should start with a reasonable estimate of how many galleys Venice can actually deploy before going into proclamations of the end of its naval power. We know Venice deployed 33 galleys against the Cretan revolt. Presumably they had additional naval deployments at the time. In the next war with Genoa they had 48 galleys at Chioggia after losing 15 more and over 3,000 men at Pola. Which means a total force around 63 galleys after losing Dalmatia and fighting a second war with Hungary.

A few arguments on the general estimation. In the 1350s Crete provided 4 galleys each year and in 1362 the Cretans were ordered to arm 6. At the same time, they seem to have provided a lot of crossbowmen, with 500 being a number I have seen. These are more crossbowmen that cretan 4-6 galleys need. That means that the crossbowmen for a few other galleys were Cretans. During the War of Choggia, the hulls of 5 light galleys were stored in Modon. I think it would be unlikely that the two small cities could man these ships and at the same time garrison themselves. After all, their population was mixed and included Greeks and Jews who were not drafted - in contrast to Crete where Greeks provided crews. I would think that the vast majority of the crews were Latins from the Peloponnese and the Ionian Islands. And then there are the few galleys from Cyclades and Negroponte. Overall, if there is a war, these sources of ships and naval manpower will be tied down, in revolt or not exist at all (Latin statelets and Cyclades).

The original force that sailed with Pisani and defeated the Genoese off Anzio consisted of 15 galleys. After his victory took his fleet east to Cyprus to raid Genoese shipping, met up with additional galleys from the venetian colonies of the Aegean and wintered in Pola. It seems that in Pola they had around 20-25 galleys, so the Aegean squadron must have been around 6-10 galleys, consisted with the above figures. It is difficult to properly calculate the number of Pisani's galleys because part of his crews died during the winter with many sick. Some galleys were on land without crews and at least two had only half their normal complement. He received some replacements from Venice but even so it seems that only 16 of his galleys had full crews.

Then, we have the fleet of Carlo Zeno. He left Venice with 5 galleys to harry the genoese trade. Then he received another 6 galleys and returned home to participate in Chioggia with ... 14. I think it is plausible that the additional 3 galleys were from the venetian colonies.

Overall, it seems that the Venetians started the War of Chioggia with 26 galleys from the metropole and 9-13 from its colonies.

After the defeat at Pola, Pisani returned to Venice with 6 galleys. After a political debacle when the people demanded that he would re-appointed admiral, there was a total mobilization. They managed to build 40 galleys but they were able to man only 34 in total, the 6 Pola survivors included. By giving a spear or an oar to every teenager and greybeard, they managed to man 28 additional galleys. Although it should be noted that they must have manned also light craft. After all, in the afternath of Chioggia when they sent a fleet against Istria, it included light craft as well.

The Venetians in 1379 could produce a fleet of 54 galleys, but only with total mobilization to save their city. It would be neither prudent nor sustainable to fight a protracted naval war with untrained crews.

Back in 1363, the impact of the Plague would be more noticeable but they would also have access to dalmatian naval power. Back in 1350 the Dalmatians could man perhaps 10 galleys. Most likely fewer, since of the 35-strong fleet, 25 were from the metropole and the rest from Dalmatia and the rest of the colonies. But if the Hungarians are invading, I could see the dalmatian cities providing only token resistance as in OTL 1357 - they were as rebelious as the Cretans, or more. And the cities that would resist, they would need their fighting men on theirs walls.
 
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If their 7th child is a boy he would be the perfect age to marry Valentina Visconti forging an alliance with the Visconti in northern Italy and if things go as IOTL giving them a claim on Milan.

Can't wait for more.
Isn’t Milan landlocked even with its wealth the laskaris main power is because most of their holdings has a coastline allowing them to send troop and supplies using the sea
 
Someone should start with a reasonable estimate of how many galleys Venice can actually deploy before going into proclamations of the end of its naval power. We know Venice deployed 33 galleys against the Cretan revolt. Presumably they had additional naval deployments at the time. In the next war with Genoa they had 48 galleys at Chioggia after losing 15 more and over 3,000 men at Pola. Which means a total force around 63 galleys after losing Dalmatia and fighting a second war with Hungary.

Which mind you isn't all that different from Venetian deployments in the war of the Straits. The Venetians are sending 20 galleys in Sardinia to ling up with the Aragonese, have another 35 at the disaster in Sapienza and probably 29-41 depending on the actual size of the Aragonese fleet, of which they lose up to 14 in the battle of the Bosporus. Which gives us again... between 57 and 69 galleys.

Oh by the way it also gives us an estimate of the Aragonese fleet at no less than 38-50 galleys...

technically Venice for the unfortunate 4th crusade, according to some historians, prepared at least 100 galleys ( other studies claim a higher number, but this is the most accepted figure ) so it is not strange that if the Serenissima is put under pressure it is capable of deploying similar numbers
 
Isn’t Milan landlocked even with its wealth the laskaris main power is because most of their holdings has a coastline allowing them to send troop and supplies using the sea
I believe Genoa was a de facto Milanese protectorate at times, but I'm not certain when exactly.
Also, it's useful to have Milan on your side to check the Venetians, the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperors by holding sway over the Po valley. Having a reliable partner in Italy - since the Hungarians can't be really counted to distract the enemies of Syracuse forever or to have converging interests - is critical to the security of the Lascarid Empire Italian provinces, which are not any less important than their provinces of Hellas.
 
@Lascaris I have a question. Has the concept of knighthood(not just the pronoia land for military service thing) caught up with the Rhomans under the Lascarids? Did the aristocrats of the Lascarid state formally get knighted like the aristocracy of the other states during this period when they are of age?
 
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I believe Genoa was a de facto Milanese protectorate at times, but I'm not certain when exactly.
Also, it's useful to have Milan on your side to check the Venetians, the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperors by holding sway over the Po valley. Having a reliable partner in Italy - since the Hungarians can't be really counted to distract the enemies of Syracuse forever or to have converging interests - is critical to the security of the Lascarid Empire Italian provinces, which are not any less important than their provinces of Hellas.
True but without a coastline it would a nightmare for the laskaris to project their power, also this would make the laskaris be in the middle of the quagmire that is middle age Italy
 
You know this maybe just me being a fan of the Varangian but I really hope that the laskaris would create their own version of Varangian
From what ethnic group?Used to be the case that Arabs were used as bodyguards, but the Angevins have eradicated them. English and Nordics? Not sure the ones during this period are really that special compared to the OG Varangians.English archers otoh…..
 
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From what ethnic group?Used to be the case that Arabs were used as bodyguards, but the Angevins have eradicated them. English and Nordics? Not sure the ones during this period are really that special compared to the OG Varangians.
Why not the og went Constantinople fall to the laskaris
 
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