Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[wietze]

I smell a caliber debate cropping up 😝

better bring up some food to discuss

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

better bring up some food to discuss

In other news during 1941 the four British Railway companies introduce a standardised pork pie. In later testing by the Royal Artillery one pie penetrates a 2.5" thick armour plate,

 

[Starinski]

Oh dear Lord, what have I done ?

better bring up some food to discuss

 

[marathag]

Aren't the projectiles like 90% of the functionality of the gun?

The game is to get the projectile to survive impact on armor plate, and then penetrate without shattering.
On paper, the 2 pdr mk6 projectile should have been able to penetrate any German Tank thru 1941. But they had a bad habit of shattering on hitting the German Face Hardened plate. That wasn't fixed with capped projectiles in 1942

 

[MattII]

The game is to get the projectile to survive impact on armor plate, and then penetrate without shattering.
On paper, the 2 pdr mk6 projectile should have been able to penetrate any German Tank thru 1941. But they had a bad habit of shattering on hitting the German Face Hardened plate. That wasn't fixed with capped projectiles in 1942

How does that affect the 77mm vs 17-pounder debate?

 

[Bougnas]

I'm fairly certain that is incorrect. The 77mm was, I am sure, a modification of the 75mm HV. The 75mm HV was designed to use American 75mm projectiles but in a larger case to extract greater performance. Of that I am now certain, the British 75mm was an attempt to improve on the US 75mm gun.
When the 77mm was adapted from the 75mm the only thing to really change was the projectile, both guns used the same 420mm long case from the 3" 20cwt AA gun of WW1. After moving away from the American projectiles the gun was given a bit more power and renamed the 77mm to avoid confusion. The only thing the 77mm and 17 pounder have in common are the projectiles.

The real question is why were the British using the American 75mm projectiles for a gun they designed. My best guess is that the British were trying to tempt the Americans into adopting a British gun for the Sherman and any future tanks. There was serious discussion in Britain in 1942 (when the 75mm HV development started) to stop all tank design and production and just use American tanks. My suspicion, which I admit I can not prove, is that the 75mm HV was a face saving measure of sorts. Get the Sherman to become more of a Universal tank. "It may be American but it uses a British Gun" as an example. Plus improving the AP performance of the US 75mm is not a goal without merit looking ahead in WW2. When the decision was made to not stop building tanks then the obvious gun to put in the next tank is the same gun you want in the Sherman. I suspect that it soon became apparent that the Americans were done listening to the British and were going to keep going their own way. At that point relying on US projectiles for the next tank gun became pointless and the switch was made to 17 pounder projectiles.

It is an interesting thought though, what if the US had adopted the 75mm HV for the Sherman in late 42 or early 43?

I have talked with some people who confirm the British just wanted the Americans to supply the projectiles directly. The Americans eventually refused to give them that way.

True Anglo power move would have been to put 6pdr HV "Canuck gun" in the M4 and M10 as was considered in the Firefly program when the 17pdr was not ready/deemed able to fit. Pure L63.5 57mm memes with a specialized APCR that didn't have the quirks of 17pdr APDS, plus later on a Canadian-style APDS. (It's worse than 17pdr with the same type of round but way better than everything else, and fairly comfy to fit).

Honestly, Anglo TLs need more of the bespoke guns like 8, 10, 12 pounders and HV 2 and 6 pdr.

 

[MattII]

I guess they'll probably end up with something like the 77mm, but in a slightly different way.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Pearl - 10days and counting.......

What is in force Z and where is it???

You mean 'OTL Pearl - 10 days and counting...'
Imperial Japan may currently be arguing about needing more troops for Malaya, etc, etc and putting everything back a week or two, or planning a glorious contest to try to elect (in best 'pseudo-bushido' fashion) new political officials and military officers.

 

[MattII]

I wonder how many M3 Light tanks are in Malaya now?

I also guess that the Victor being in service by 1943 means no Sherman Fireflys? After all, what need do you have for a bodge-together vehicle when a bespoke one is available?

 

[wietze]

In other news during 1941 the four British Railway companies introduce a standardised pork pie. In later testing by the Royal Artillery one pie penetrates a 2.5" thick armour plate,

why am i not surprised
it probably fell in the same category as that discworld staple - dwarf bread
i wonder if the railways used a recipe from a certain CMOT Dibbler lol

 

[Donald Reaver]

why am i not surprised
it probably fell in the same category as that discworld staple - dwarf bread
i wonder if the railways used a recipe from a certain CMOT Dibbler lol

I think the railways would not break internationally written war crimes rules.

 

[Icedaemon]

Oh no! Will poor Benito be alright?

That would be the Fascist Council and the King.

Speaking of Italian royalty, has prince Amedeo survived in this timeline? The Italian monarchy breaking with the fascist junta might lead to interesting things.

I think the railways would not break internationally written war crimes rules.

It's only a warcrime if POWs or enemy civilians have to eat the pork pie, I believe. As long as any German expat does not ride a train it's fine.

 

[Donald Reaver]

It's only a warcrime if POWs or enemy civilians have to eat the pork pie, I believe. As long as any German expat does not ride a train it's fine.

A reasonable point, so if they advertise it "This is only a war crime if you are a citizen of a country we are at war with, otherwise we are fine." should work?

 

[Jellico]

Pearl - 10days and counting.......

What is in force Z and where is it???

At Singapore having caterpillar tracks fitted. This is a tank OTL.

 

[marathag]

How does that affect the 77mm vs 17-pounder debate?

Having a huge load of propellant behind a poor AP projectile will not result in a good hole puncher. You can exceed material strength of an alloy's heat treatment.
too hard can be worse than too soft. This was not found with the UK testing at Shoeburyness, but in live combat.
The early US 75mm AP projectiles, circa 1941, were terrible, while the later AP capped rounds were very good.
They didn't catch that at Aberdeen Proving Grounds either, but in North African combat

Other issues, that 17 pdr Sabots were very inaccurate out of some tubes, and good in others. A round that misses from excessive dispersion past 400 yards doesn't do anyone any favors either

 

[Sam R.]

The BAT seems to have been heavier and bulkier than the 17 lber

 

[MattII]

Having a huge load of propellant behind a poor AP projectile will not result in a good hole puncher. You can exceed material strength of an alloy's heat treatment.
too hard can be worse than too soft. This was not found with the UK testing at Shoeburyness, but in live combat.
The early US 75mm AP projectiles, circa 1941, were terrible, while the later AP capped rounds were very good.
They didn't catch that at Aberdeen Proving Grounds either, but in North African combat

Other issues, that 17 pdr Sabots were very inaccurate out of some tubes, and good in others. A round that misses from excessive dispersion past 400 yards doesn't do anyone any favors either

IIRC, the sabot was good below a certain muzzle velocity, which meant it did well in the 77mm, but not the 17 pounder.

 

[alspug]

The problem of shells breaking apart on impact was hardly a solely British problem, however the British nearly lost the battle of Jutland due to the poor performance of their Naval Shells. I would be very surprised if this was a part of the problems the British had in providing HE filling for AP ammunition. I think the other component of that issue was the use of HE in AT guns meant the Royal Artillery would need to control the guns and thus remove the utility of infantry AT guns.

BTW the way in which the British Army would allow the Royal Artillery to state that tanks able to fire HE should be artillery controlled similar to how the American tank destroyer debacle came about.

The APDS problems came from not understanding everything about high speed Sabot use, I think it took high speed cameras to work out the entire problem.

 

[brazen]

In other news during 1941 the four British Railway companies introduce a standardised pork pie. In later testing by the Royal Artillery one pie penetrates a 2.5" thick armour plate,

You need to quote your sauces.....

The lack of information on this post is infuriating, was it the standard Lattice pie or the APDSEHG Pie?

 

[vizzer]

You need to quote your sauces.....

The lack of information on this post is infuriating, was it the standard Lattice pie or the APDSEHG Pie?

However, due to wartime shortages the railway pork pie was found to be an adequate substitute for a cricket ball 😁