Competition to Christianity in a World Without Islam

[Stellar_Lights]

they were north africa was one the riches provinces and the amazigh tribes were not minor players one of the reason why the vandal war was possible and justinian went for it because years prior in 523 the vandal army was destroyed by the Laguatans and the romano berber kingdom caused much problems for byzantine africa even after its destrucion the sucessor states were consolidating and in the otl these delayed the arab conquest the most famous example was Caecilius of altava and Kahina of Aures

I am not saying that they were not sophisticated. But the Arabs were more advanced, being on the trading routes and bordering several old civilizations at the crossroads of the World. The Berbers didn't have this level of advantage and advancement.

the slavs did not convert till the 9th century in the otl

Ohh, yes. Only the Croats were accepting Christianity at the 7th to 8th Centuries, but most other Slavs became Christian in the 9th Century. That makes them an interesting candidate, too. A POD for a population explosion similar to the Arabs, could help with that.

 

[Silver01]

Just killing Muhammad doesn’t necessarily completely prevent a Monotheistic religion worshipping “Allah” with significant Arabian influences from originating within the Arabian Peninsular. There was a general monotheistic current growing strength (a religiously unaffiliated group of ambiguous monotheists) and a lot of specifically Jewish/Christian/Manichaeistic influences in the region. Killing Muhammad changes a lot about Arabian Universalist Judaism and has the possibility of preventing a different religion rising in the region (could merely be a Christianity variant) but it’s not a certain thing. Other prophets could rise in the area, after all and Mecca was an important religious site before Islam.

By muslim sources abu bark was always a Hanif but then again mohamed was very smart and lucky for even after his preaching islam could have died off or evolved something similar to chirstianity had he died before he had political power

But if we’re butterflying an Arabian Monotheistic religion rising entirely? My money is on Manichaeism. It had popular appeal and was eating away at Zoroastrianism in Iran and had a lot of almost successes OTL even with Islam China pushing it down. Alternatively a more explicitly Universalist Judaism is possible but issue is gestation region.

I always hear that claim but found no source for Manichaeism being prevelant in the 7th century in iran quite the opposite the few one i found said the

I don’t think Buddhism would be able to become a contender. Islam did a lot to damage Buddhist dominance over the subcontinent but it was already losing ground to “Hinduisms” due to the trend of Buddhist ascetic monasticism growing in prominence in India detaching Buddhist institutes from local communities and making Buddhist religious services less approachable than say paying your local Brahmin equivalent for religious services and blessings. Though perhaps without an Islamic invasion and the destruction associated with it, Buddhist institutes could have adapted.

that would be for india but what about central asia and china? even the otl chinese and indian Buddhisim split and as mentioned in another comment in tang dominion over central asia last longer and is more consistent imo i can see a new branch there especially if they convert the turks of the region

 

[Silver01]

I am not saying that they were not sophisticated. But the Arabs were more advanced, being on the trading routes and bordering several old civilizations at the crossroads of the World. The Berbers didn't have this level of advantage and advancement.

1) how do you determine advancement? mohamed tribe was one of the most powerfull by 600 ad controling the central arabia trade routes but again north africa is rich province and the amazigh have been in contact with many old civilizations as well and being in the byzantine trade routes

Ohh, yes. Only the Croats were accepting Christianity at the 7th to 8th Centuries, but most other Slavs became Christian in the 9th Century. That makes them an interesting candidate, too. A POD for a population explosion similar to the Arabs, could help with that.

In the otl the slavs even with a gutted byzantine empire never united until bulgaria conquered it all but then again no islam means the unless something occurs the byzantines will be attempting to reconquer the balkans way sooner which given how Constans II did well against the tribes of macedonia i think most of the slavs are screwed here

 

[Silver01]

My money is on Manichaeism. It had popular appeal and was eating away at Zoroastrianism in Iran and had a lot of almost successes OTL even with Islam China pushing it down. Alternatively a more explicitly Universalist Judaism is possible but issue is gestation region.

I would disagree with this notion about eating away at persia in fact quite the opposite while its an old source its the only one that speaks in detial about them Tardieu, Le Manichéisme, mentions how the religion saw its return to mesopotamia for a large numbers after the arabs took over even Al-Nadīm, reports that a schism split the Manicheans in Transoxania from the authority of the leader in Babylon during most of the 7th century eastern iran and transoxiana seemed to the hub of the manicheans not iran or mesopotamia

 

[Sarthak]

Even before Islam, the Pre-Islamic Arabian Pantheon was being condensed into a Tritheistic form, with worship largely becoming centered around Allah (the Arabic Pagan Creator God, not Islamic Allah), Manat (the Goddess of fate, fortune, time, death, and destiny and one of the few Arabic Gods that Muhammad thought existed as a powerful entity, but not as a real g God according to some sources) and Al-Uzza (Goddess of Might and Protection, and like her sister, Manat, was considered a real entity by Muhammad and Khalid as well via some sources). Other gods like Al-Lat, Hubal, Haukim, and Bes were starting to take on a more Angel like role in Arabic Paganism organically according to the inscriptions at Abd Shams, rather than being actual Gods themselves, though with Al-Lat it was more foggy because her sisters Al-Uzza and Manat were revered above even Allah many times, especially Manat. Muhammad, reportedly, said that Manat was the strongest pre-Islamic God of the Arabs, according to the writings of Ibn al-Kalbi

So a united Tritheistic Belief rising out of Arabia, matching the time period of the Roman-Persian War at the Arabic Demographic Boom at the same time or nearly the same time and taking advantage of the weakened Romans and Persians to expand isn't out of the question. If they can expand into the horn of Africa as well - there is some evidence of Pagan Arabic influence on ancient Eritrea, Djibouti and Somaliland - then they could become a strong contender for a nearby strong religious rival.

 

[Silver01]

Even before Islam, the Pre-Islamic Arabian Pantheon was being condensed into a Tritheistic form, with worship largely becoming centered around Allah (the Arabic Pagan Creator God, not Islamic Allah), Manat (the Goddess of fate, fortune, time, death, and destiny and one of the few Arabic Gods that Muhammad thought existed as a powerful entity, but not as a real g God according to some sources) and Al-Uzza (Goddess of Might and Protection, and like her sister, Manat, was considered a real entity by Muhammad and Khalid as well via some sources). Other gods like Al-Lat, Hubal, Haukim, and Bes were starting to take on a more Angel like role in Arabic Paganism organically according to the inscriptions at Abd Shams, rather than being actual Gods themselves, though with Al-Lat it was more foggy because her sisters Al-Uzza and Manat were revered above even Allah many times, especially Manat. Muhammad, reportedly, said that Manat was the strongest pre-Islamic God of the Arabs, according to the writings of Ibn al-Kalbi

just an asterics since this is mainly for Hejaz and mohamed tribe but the again the quraysh uniting great parts of even all arabia is very possible due to their strong position in 600

 

[Qastiel]

By muslim sources abu bark was always a Hanif but then again mohamed was very smart and lucky for even after his preaching islam could have died off or evolved something similar to chirstianity had he died before he had political power

I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here except the part where you said the Arabian Monotheist could’ve evolved in the direction of Christianity and it’s certainly possible but not guaranteed. Christian King Abraha supposedly tried to destroy Mecca so as to convert San’ah and a church he built there into the primary pilgrimage site of Arabia. This likely would’ve resulted in a Christian Arabia but at the same time I could see a Jewish Arabia occurring as Jewish conversions were very popular in the Hejaz.

Though at the same time I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if another Prophet like Musaylima arose and created a not-Islam is the Prophet Muhammad had died in infancy. It was a fertile religious ground.

I always hear that claim but found no source for Manichaeism being prevelant in the 7th century in iran quite the opposite the few one i found said the

from what I’m given to understand it was fairly popular among the Sogdians and in Mesopotamia but had lost some ground in Iran proper after Zoroastrian reforms until the consolidation of the Avesta into proper religious texts.

that would be for india but what about central asia and china? even the otl chinese and indian Buddhisim split and as mentioned in another comment in tang dominion over central asia last longer and is more consistent imo i can see a new branch there especially if they convert the turks of the region

I do t know much about Buddhism outside of India until we get to the interactions between Tibetan Buddhism and the Oirat/Dzungar which is kinda too late for me to really comment on but from what I could tell Buddhism did have some good structural benefits for conversion from a Steppe Nomad perspective.

I would disagree with this notion about eating away at persia in fact quite the opposite while its an old source its the only one that speaks in detial about them Tardieu, Le Manichéisme, mentions how the religion saw its return to mesopotamia for a large numbers after the arabs took over even Al-Nadīm, reports that a schism split the Manicheans in Transoxania from the authority of the leader in Babylon during most of the 7th century eastern iran and transoxiana seemed to the hub of the manicheans not iran or mesopotamia

The bit about Mesopotamia is unexpected. From what I understand while it was being persecuted there was a strong undercurrent of crypto-Manichaeism within Iraq with there being significant numbers of Manichaeists in Ctesiphon.

And yeah Sogdia/Bactria had become a hub for Manichaeism and I had heard that to a limited degree Manichaeism had back propagated back to Eastern Iran in regions in secret but I can’t find the source I read it from so I’ll have to concede on that point.

 

[Silver01]

I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here except the part where you said the Arabian Monotheist could’ve evolved in the direction of Christianity and it’s certainly possible but not guaranteed. Christian King Abraha supposedly tried to destroy Mecca so as to convert San’ah and a church he built there into the primary pilgrimage site of Arabia. This likely would’ve resulted in a Christian Arabia but at the same time I could see a Jewish Arabia occurring as Jewish conversions were very popular in the Hejaz.

I was just putting an example how even if another religion prop up it becoming it would not necessarily be any were close to islam mohamed example is well before medina mohamed was more like jesus he was preacher that had no real political power and follower of persecuted religion had mohamed died in 618 islam would have been a minor cult like early chirstianity, this could also apply for any new prophet that dies young or early into his prophethood.

from what I’m given to understand it was fairly popular among the Sogdians and in Mesopotamia but had lost some ground in Iran proper after Zoroastrian reforms until the consolidation of the Avesta into proper religious texts.

oh in that case yes in transoxiana it was more widespread in fact it became its center among the many reasons was the persians loosing the area from 350s to 580s and I found no sources stating that the hephthalites or turks persecuted them, as for mesopotamia it was were they originated but even when many returned to it when the muslims conquered the place transoxiana was had just risen so much.

what I could tell Buddhism did have some good structural benefits for conversion from a Steppe Nomad perspective.

one can imagine areas like north caucasus mountains in that region to be Buddhism

 

[Arkenfolm]

Points #1 and #3 are nothing but OTL Islam, in a different region. Islam has inspirations from Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism/Zurvanism and Arab Paganism, along with Monophysite/Nestorian Christianity and Judaism forming it's main base. Some extinct variants of Islam were likely closer to Gnosticism.

I think the region that will birth this religion should be politically and institutionally developed enough for that, to avoid conversion to Christianity or Zoroastrianism/Zurvanism (the superpower faiths) in the first place. Germanic and Slavic tribes, Scythians/Sarmatians, Kurds, Caucasians like Chechens, C Albanians, Ingush, etc were not as advanced as the Arabs in that sense. Neither were the Berbers, in my opinion. Arabs were because they had access to strategic land area and trade routes. You can say that only Goths and Celts were nearly as advanced as the Arabs, before they embraced Christianity. So, if the Arabs somehow end up entirely Christian by the 600 AD, this religion may have to start in the peripheries of the later Christian World, when institutionally developed. By then, Celts were likely entirely Christian. Slavs were quickly converting. Only the Saxons and Baltic tribes may the candidates to pull this feat off, after 700 AD. In that case, I think a lot of the Eastern tribes might convert, eventually making into the collapsing Sassanid Empire, while the Western Europe gets conquered, while the East stays intact and Christian.

How were the Berbers not as developed as the Arabs? They had a long, long relationship with the Romans and by the end of the 5th century were organised into several kingdoms that posed a constant threat to the Vandals and required a large Byzantine army to subdue.

The Baltic tribes were definitely not developed either for a very long time. Only Lithuania ever formed into a coherent kingdom by virtue of being adjacent to the Mongols.

Both the persians, the romans and even china if it follows the Otl means that while it last longer being persecuted in most populated centers of eurasia means that it can only go so far unless we wank the uyghurs or a powerfull nomadic empire adopts it.

The thing is the Sassanid Empire will eventually fall, and with it the state-sponsored variety of Zoroastrianism. That would give Manichaeism a chance to make inroads.

 

[Silver01]

The thing is the Sassanid Empire will eventually fall, and with it the state-sponsored variety of Zoroastrianism. That would give Manichaeism a chance to make inroads.

its possibilty but given how the main center of the religion is transoxiana which is turkic and the turkic khagante depending on the pod is terminal decline ( this assumes the sassanids will eventually fall due to loosing 602 war if not i dont see them falling soon) you have Parthian clans, Persian aristocratic families including sassanid cadet branches unless one of these become Manichaeian or tolerates them i actually see a continuation of sassanid zoroastrianisim especially if a persian family takes the throne

 

[ramones1986]

Could Ebionitism have the chance to compete with (mainstream) Christianity?

 

[Whiteshore]

Depending on what happens to the Byzantines there may be a more pronounced Calchedionan versus Non-Calchedonian divide. Add to that the Orthodox-Catholic schism, an alternate Reform.

So it is more likely the divide between Western and Eastern Christianity is more pronounced ITTL, then?

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

What if Gnosticism grows enough to abandon the trappings of other religions and become an openly practised faith in its own right? Like how Buddhism split off from Hinduism.

 

[Stellar_Lights]

How were the Berbers not as developed as the Arabs?

Berbers were developed in certain pockets, which I don't deny. But certainly not as much as the Arabs, who lived around two Ancient civilizations, lived on a trade route and incorporated several institutions and practices from their neighbors. Also, you had the large Himyarite Kingdom in the South.,

The Baltic tribes were definitely not developed either for a very long time. Only Lithuania ever formed into a coherent kingdom by virtue of being adjacent to the Mongols.

Yes, that's why I think a religion founded by them might come out only post the 8th or 9th Centuries, when the region started improving. Not before that. At the time of the Islamic expansions, I think only Saxons were around as developed.

 

[Whiteshore]

What if Gnosticism grows enough to abandon the trapping of other religions and become an openly practised faith in its own right? Like how Buddhism split off from Hinduism.

I mean, Manicheaism kinda fulfills that.

 

[Silver01]

So it is more likely the divide between Western and Eastern Christianity is more pronounced ITTL, then?

I want to respond so badly but I'm going to spoil my timeline

 

[Siberian Tiger]

Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism are possible candidates. There would also be competition between different sects of Christianity.

 

[Silver01]

I forgot to mention new non gnostic movements in the otl there were Islamic Zoroastrian syncretic faiths and my timeline due increased influence in mesopotamia some made a syncretic faith I don't think these would be main competitors but who knows maybe one empire decided to adopt it

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Honestly there's a pretty good TL in this site called "Dunes of the Desert" where it's a world without Islam and it explores all the consequences of that, it's a very good read, especially because the authors took care to explore the butterflies well and how they end up reshaping the world. In that TL,Christianity is the biggest religion in the world(and growing) but Manicheism, while not exactly close behind, is the closest thing it has to a rival.

 

[HunterX]

Depending on what happens to the Byzantines there may be a more pronounced Calchedionan versus Non-Calchedonian divide. Add to that the Orthodox-Catholic schism, an alternate Reform.

What schism? Without Islam the Pope may never achieve the political independence from the Roman Empire for a schism to even be on the cards.