I have a feeling that those 16" turrets will be moved to new ships come 1937, and the flight and hanger decks extended forward.
... anyway, you all wanted a Vanguard earlier ... well here's three of them ... you're welcome ...
In 1914 the Dominion of Canada agreed to pay the cost of three new battleships for the Royal Navy There arose heated debates in the dominion over how the ships might be named, with the final result being to pick names that had association with the dominion, yet would not set off further division. The first of these ships, utilizing the U-4 design would be named HMS Terra Nova, in honour of the Dominion. The other pair, built to the U-5 design, would be named HMS Erebus and HMS Terror, in honour of the two ships of the Franklin Expedition, which disappeared attempting to find a navigate the North-West Passage in 1845.
The end result of the final choices for the names of the vessels would be: "One of the most unifying moments in that young Dominion's history up until that point, as all Canadians despised their monickers with mutual and expletive-filled derision."
- Winston Churchill
By the time these vessels would enter service, the Great War would be over. While they would give yeoman service through the 20's and early 30's, however by that time the limitations of their designs were readily apparent. In the style of the 'Great Reconstruction' of the veteran monitors of the US Navy, the Royal Navy would salvage the main armament and armoured plate from several of their 15" armed battleships for incorporation into modern hulls. The Erebus, Terror and Terra Nova would be included in that program. HMS Erebus and HMS Terror would be rejoin the fleet in 1938 and 1939 respectively, while HMS Terra Nova would join them early in 1941.
In 1914 the Dominion of Canada agreed to pay the cost of three new battleships for the Royal Navy There arose heated debates in the dominion over how the ships might be named, with the final result being to pick names that had association with the dominion, yet would not set off further division. The first of these ships, utilizing the U-4 design would be named HMS Terra Nova, in honour of the Dominion. The other pair, built to the U-5 design, would be named HMS Erebus and HMS Terror, in honour of the two ships of the Franklin Expedition, which disappeared attempting to find a navigate the North-West Passage in 1845.
The end result of the final choices for the names of the vessels would be: "One of the most unifying moments in that young Dominion's history up until that point, as all Canadians despised their monickers with mutual and expletive-filled derision."
- Winston Churchill
By the time these vessels would enter service, the Great War would be over. While they would give yeoman service through the 20's and early 30's, however by that time the limitations of their designs were readily apparent. In the style of the 'Great Reconstruction' of the veteran monitors of the US Navy, the Royal Navy would salvage the main armament and armoured plate from several of their 15" armed battleships for incorporation into modern hulls. The Erebus, Terror and Terra Nova would be included in that program. HMS Erebus and HMS Terror would be rejoin the fleet in 1938 and 1939 respectively, while HMS Terra Nova would join them early in 1941.
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I don’t know what you are really talking about since U4 and U5 were not A-Bs-Xs-Y capital ships at all. A rebuild to fix this later on would be largely impossible . I’m not sure how you want to get Canada to even approve these three ships as historically it was the most divisive political event since confederation, eventually being crushed by the Liberal Senate. On top of this, the British don’t have the guns, machinery, armor or dockyards to make these three ships during this time, there’s gotta be some serious alternate history going on here to make all of this be happen.
Canada cannot crew and maintain three capital ships during the interwar period as well, let alone pay for their reconstruction to such a degree.
I knew what the U4 and U5 were, If you read the original post it states that the armament and certain equipments were salvaged and commited to a new construction (in the style of the creative rebuilds of certain civil war monitors, or even looking at Vanguard at a later date simply using the available stored turrets.) In a lot of cases extensive rebuilds can close on the actual cost of new construction, and the end result is that you end up with a polished old ship.
Canada was not manning or maintaining them, as per the original request from Great Britain, Canada was simply providing the funding. There are suppositions that the chosen style of an improved QE design might well have been the U-4/U-5 choice.
Yes, there's a lot of bloody big butterflies that would have to fly by to get something like this off the ground, however I was thinking that we were dealing with alternate scenarios here so I tossed something up. But it appears I have riled the experts sensibilities, so I'll post no more
G'day
Canada was not manning or maintaining them, as per the original request from Great Britain, Canada was simply providing the funding. There are suppositions that the chosen style of an improved QE design might well have been the U-4/U-5 choice.
Yes, there's a lot of bloody big butterflies that would have to fly by to get something like this off the ground, however I was thinking that we were dealing with alternate scenarios here so I tossed something up. But it appears I have riled the experts sensibilities, so I'll post no more
G'day
No need for that, it is always good to see alternative ideas for ships. I missed the part about the Canadian ships being scrapped and parts recycled. That makes sense for totally different looks of the ships to the U4 and U5's. The longest lead items on a major warship are always the main guns, so reusing them along with the turrets does make sense. Also reusing as much armour as possible (Belt armour was bolted on as far as I know) also makes sense, but deck armour may be harder to reuse.
What's with the G3 type bridge on top of the Queen Anne's mansion? Seems like unnecessary top weight.
I'd also go for 4.5s, the brits are surely running low on 5.25s regardless plus the 4.5 will be a better overall gun till late war
Yeah ... the tower bridge needs work .., playing with various options to turn out something original, while following historical styling points ... a work in progress ... I'd preferr the 4.5" myself if for nothing else than weight savings which could trade off for fatter magazines, as well as initial cost savings, I have even considered the 4" in adequate numbers at this stage, but figured there would be more disgust with the 4" than any of the options. the 4" would be backing up from the 4.5" but the cabinet's fiscal thinking might well be agreeable with that thought, while the RN can upgrade later if need be ... as cheap a new battleship as possible. Given the historical end result, it might have worked. My personal choice would be to ditch the A/C handling facilities, but at that point in time they are fairly well integral to planning... it's all a work in progress (or back sliding as it were). The overall main concern is to provide a ship that can stand to in an effective manner for traditional battleship type roles in lieu of the original R's and other types. It might well mean a delay or even end to part of the KGV program, but it would allow for more serviceable ships earlier to face down the Germans/Italians and later the Japanese.
( I actually have an older version with 4" somewhere ... a more austere version ... this one was to assuage the Vanguard groupies somewhat ... pardon my antics)
( I actually have an older version with 4" somewhere ... a more austere version ... this one was to assuage the Vanguard groupies somewhat ... pardon my antics)
HMS Thunder Child
United Kingdom Torpedo Ram
Built: Chatham Dockyard
1885-1898
Displacement:United Kingdom Torpedo Ram
Built: Chatham Dockyard
1885-1898
2,326 t light; 2,382 t standard; 2,494 t normal; 2,584 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(265.00 ft / 253.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (19.00 / 19.48 ft)
(80.77 m / 77.11 m) x 12.19 m x (5.79 / 5.94 m)
Armament:
1 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal gun - 109.97lbs / 49.88kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick Firing gun in deck mount, 1894 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.49lbs / 0.22kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 112 lbs / 51 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m torpedoes - 0.315 t each, 1.261 t total
submerged side tubes
2nd Torpedoes
1 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m torpedo - 0.315 t total
submerged bow tube
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 157.95 ft / 48.14 m 7.40 ft / 2.26 m
Ends: 1.00" / 25 mm 85.03 ft / 25.92 m 7.40 ft / 2.26 m
10.02 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 157.95 ft / 48.14 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
Main-belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 8.00" / 203 mm
Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,795 ihp / 5,069 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 1,250nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 201 tons (100% coal)
Complement:
176 - 229
Cost:
£0.245 million / $0.982 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 22 tons, 0.9 %
- Guns: 19 tons, 0.7 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 542 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 234 tons, 9.4 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 242 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Towers: 63 tons, 2.5 %
Machinery: 1,129 tons, 45.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 463 tons, 18.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 6.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 170 tons, 6.8 %
- Hull below water: 20 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 20 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
721 lbs / 327 Kg = 7.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.50
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.61
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.454 / 0.459
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.08 ft / 3.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 156.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.1 %
Waterplane Area: 6,477 Square feet or 602 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 73 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 201 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.55
- Longitudinal: 2.14
- Overall: 0.63
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The Thunder Child was an unwanted ship, built in response to a rumor of a French torpedo vessel Gloire by a panicked Admiralty after Polyphemus successfully performed her tests. Too late did the Admiralty realized the intelligence failure (A mistranslation of an old order to scrap the original Gloire). However, Thunder Child proved to be a suitable testing bed for a number of devices and unlike Polyphemus a decent coastal defense vessel. While the strain on her hull in open water storms was worrisome after an especially heavy storm damaged her while returning from tests with the Mediterranean fleet, her seakeeping allowed her crew to keep the ship intact. As such Thunder Child would be assigned to coastal protection and some escort duties. The ship was refitted in 1894 with its original 4-inch cannon replaced by a larger 6-inch cannon.
This was how affairs stood on November 15th, 1898 when the Martians attacked a refugee fleet fleeing the mouth of the River Blackwater, Essex where Thunder Child awaited the HMS Nile and HMS Terrible to begin the voyage to Osten when the tripods attacked. Captain Hodges ordered his ship to attack the three tripods with a ramming attack, the Martians were aware of larger battleships and armored cruisers through battles with the Royal Navy but had yet to meet the smaller vessels and so did not fire anything but the Black Smoke. The ship is thought to have sped through the smoke before its effects could settle on the crew and rammed a war machines control center drowning the Martian. The ship would make smoke, hide for a few seconds and then fire its 6 and 1-inch guns at the other two. The 6-inch shell struck home and decapitated a war machine while the 1-inch cannons wounded the other. The third war machine, despite its wounds, began a 20-minute firing match with the Torpedo Ram resulting in the destruction of the Naval vessel. However, the war machine would succumb to its own wounds with it being discovered by the HMS Terrible when it came to investigate the scene. While the author of the War of the Worlds proclaimed it a defeat, the Royal Navy saw it as a victory as not one refugee vessel was ruined due to the heroic actions of the ram.
Furthermore, the actions of the Royal Navy caused the Martians to cease attacking coastal towns as, despite the loss of 54 vessels, the Martians would lose some 118 tripods in battle. Although this would have been moot had the Martian Flying machines come into service, the Terrible's return with the Martian corpse allowed the British people to gain hope wherever they held out as news spread of the imminent Martian extinction due to disease.
(My idea on the Thunder Childs origin and the Martian reluctance is a bit of a joke on why they brought the flying machines from a youtube comment)
McPherson
Banned
Also on the range, I only put the 1250 nm in since Polyphemus seemed to have about a range of 1229 nm (Portsmouth to Gibraltar) at 10 knots.
The Royal Navy looses 54 ships and..... Blinks a bit.
Signals - 'Admiral, we have lost 54 ships of all classes sir!'
Admiral - 'Only 54? Carry on then.'
ahhhh. Back in the day when we (1) Had a navy and (2) Could afford ship losses without blinking.
For 118 martian tripods, best trade off ever.
Course the Martians probably kept doing it because the ships that did explode just melted away.
Plus the Martians were genocidal so yeah, I dont think anyones blinking at costs now
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