Yeah, but it takes time to do that, and more to the point, it was accepted when they got msot of them. Now, it's not as accepted and it takes a lot longer to establish them and start turning a profit, especially if the locals don't see a real benefit to being colonized.
8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
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Fascism, Italian Fascism at least, had a inherently jacobin conception of the nation, unified on the language enforced from above. Something that could be argued Italy desperately still needed to become a coherent mass. Maurras and the AF were very much decentralist. A strange marriage indeed, but the National Socialist-Fascist marriage we got IRL is just as much a weird one.
Could've just as much used one of Willem III
And honestly, Italy may have had a good shot at keeping a hold of Lybia for the long term had they been able to implement the Fourth Shore and had the demand for labour and expertise exploded one oil had been found there.
Especially as Italian Fascism and the AF had, as I mentioned before, very different views on modernity.
I mean, would that weaken Italy or make it stronger since the South was such a money-suck?
Maybe also gotten the locals onboard, vs not adapting, and now everyone hates you.
That is true. But territorywise it’s still half their country ripped away
I want to specify that what I'm about to say might change depending on how my plans develop, but, according to my current plans, Italy will exit their Fascist era with more mainland territory than they had in 1930
I'm guessing Dalmatia? It's the most logical place for them to grab, and Yugoslavia ITTL is screwed so ...
Either that or Nice-Savoy.
Garrison
Donor
Yeah but if you look at their colonial behaviour, or any of the European colonial empires, getting the locals onboard was never a priority.
It was why armed struggle inevitably came because the locals realized they would never any sort of control over their land as long as Europeans controlled it, cue indepedence wars
I feel like there are only 3 ways for Europeans to keep a foreign territory. 1) Import enough Europeans to validate and back the occupation, 2) Decimate the native population enough that they can't or won't fight back, or 3) Integrate the region early enough to preempt independence wars
Garrison
Donor
The closest I can think of to option 3 might be New Zealand but even that would be a stretch. 1 and 2 were the overwhelming favourites, often in combination, heck that was the whole plan of a certain person who stopped a bullet ITTL.
I feel like Portugal and Spain came the closest to fulfilling 3. Spain because of how they ran their colonies, and Portugal because of their attempts to supercede race as a determining factor. But by the Victorian Era, nationalist policies have become too dominant
tbf I think it'd work for any far-right France and Italy. After all, they know they need each other, and if France goes off the deep end while the Italians die in Abyssinia and then Yugoslavia only the USSR would be willing to help them. They're going to be a better fit for each other since everyone else sees them as too insane.
My guess on how things go is that the Ethiopian war goes similar to otl other than the fact that Germany uses this as an excuse to ramp up weapon/shell production for Ethiopia, which keeps them closer to Britain (who sees the finished products actually reach Ethiopia) while France just gets more paranoid and jumps deeper into insanity as the AF gains more power due to it.
On the crime the French are going to do other than them going insane in Algeria I wonder if France are going to put Bretons, Occitanian and Corsican speakers into concentration camps and kill them systematically after protests against very stringent language laws as a 'final solution' against 'non-french speakers' alongside the Jews, while they go lebensraum in Algeria. For the europeans to notice it probably has to be in Europe for the europeans to notice.
It be interesting to see France being shown as 'one of the nations that lost WWI despite nominally winning it' since it does feel like Britain's the only one who actually gained from it, and the rise of Germany would just make WWI all the more bitter.
Also what's the status in Ireland?
I do wonder how things would go tho. It's highly implied that Italy would straight up break Yugoslavia up ittl, with the Ustase going insane, but I wonder how it ends. I wonder if we get an actual Italian revolution for Italy to go relatively scot free, and Italy moves out (to fight its own relatively brief civil war) while Yugoslavia continues to burn, and the hatred between the Croats, Serbs and smaller groups causes Yugoslavia to split after the war.
I wonder how Greece would turn out. With the royals being very pro German and the brits and germans working together I wonder if we'd see a less dictatorial Greece in general, with Greece gaining Corfu (probably) and not being part of the Yugoslav war and being in the same side of Bulgaria means that war won't reach Greece. A hybrid regime in Greece that still accommodates the venizelists may mean Cyprus gets to be part of Greece, which would be very cool too. I do think the venizelists would drop the megali idea tho, they know they won't be able to do something that would allow them to fight turkey once again.
I think if Italy can leverage Libyan oil I think it will work, especially if they pull off similar tactics as France during their Fascist period.
I do wonder how they manage to do that, especially if they fight in Yugoslavia/a balkan crisis. Maybe we just get the dissolution/partition of Yugoslavia (Bulgaria finally gets Macedonia lol) but it doesn't explain why France would be seen as committing a crime that killed millions or how Germany fights the USSR.
My best guesses are that France kills non French within their borders and Stalin (or rather a successor) fights in Poland but it does feel something's missing. I am very much itching to see how it develops!
If Croatia is going insane I don't think Italy would need to do that, they just need to promise autonomy to the Slovenes and they probably would be happy to stay. I just don't think it'll negate the loss of Eritrea and Somalia.
Maybe they'll lose it after the fascist period as Italy just becomes more and more weak?
It does feel the death of imperialism won't be as early as otl (especially due to the lack of reach ittl USSR has) and the colonised will suffer a lot more due to that.
And that's not accounting for Asia at all.
if we get anything similar to a pacific war ittl things would get insane very quickly there too. I just hope Sarawak stays independent.
So, what hints do we have about the near future so far ITTL?
- According to Hemingway the current "era of peace" ITTL is soon to end in a "grand ballet of death". Sounds cheery. Implication given by the nature of his work is that fascist France and fascist Italy end up allying - France is pretty much confirmed to go both fascist and genocidal. Implications are strong of some sort of major conflict, one in which France/France and Italy are involved. Against whom, maybe?
-Otto Frank, Anne Frank's father, is known as a war hero of some sort, suggesting Germany is involved in another major against IDK who.
- German troops end up fighting in Finland, probably against ... Santa and his reindeer. In completely unrelated news, a German general will write a memoir in '47 about "the war in the east".
- According to Hemingway the current "era of peace" ITTL is soon to end in a "grand ballet of death". Sounds cheery. Implication given by the nature of his work is that fascist France and fascist Italy end up allying - France is pretty much confirmed to go both fascist and genocidal. Implications are strong of some sort of major conflict, one in which France/France and Italy are involved. Against whom, maybe?
-Otto Frank, Anne Frank's father, is known as a war hero of some sort, suggesting Germany is involved in another major against IDK who.
- German troops end up fighting in Finland, probably against ... Santa and his reindeer. In completely unrelated news, a German general will write a memoir in '47 about "the war in the east".
As long as both sides get at least some of what they want they're likely to stick together, but one element of the coalition is likely to end up marginalised/purged eventually.
I think Jews and Alsatians are going to be the main targets. If France persecuted Corsicans it would p. much piss off Italy. France had a stronger rep for being anti-Semitic than Germany pre-Hitler.
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The Italians produced some visual images for the conquest of Ethiopia, apparently, still had slavery.Fascism, Italian Fascism at least, had a inherently jacobin conception of the nation, unified on the language enforced from above. Something that could be argued Italy desperately still needed to become a coherent mass. Maurras and the AF were very much decentralist. A strange marriage indeed, but the National Socialist-Fascist marriage we got IRL is just as much a weird one.
Could've just as much used one of Willem III
And honestly, Italy may have had a good shot at keeping a hold of Lybia for the long term had they been able to implement the Fourth Shore and had the demand for labour and expertise exploded one oil had been found there.
In Gibe states one-third of the general population was composed of slaves while slaves were between half and two-thirds of the general population in Kingdoms of Jimma, Kaffa, Walamo, Gera, Janjero and Kucha.
During Italian rule, the Italian occupation government issued two laws in October 1935 and in April 1936 which abolished slavery and freed 420,000 Ethiopian slaves.
The rest of the rural population were Gabbars who lived under a feudal system until 1966.
Slave labour in the agriculture sector in southwest Ethiopia means that slaves constituted higher proportion of the general population when compared to the northern Ethiopia where agrarian producers are mainly free Gabbars. Gabbars own their own land as “rist” and their legal obligation is to pay one fifth of their produce as land tax and asrat, another one-tenth, with a total of one third of total production paid as tax to be shared between the gult holder and the state. In addition to these taxes, peasants of north Ethiopia have informal obligations where they will be forced “to undertake courvéé (forced labour)" such as farming, grinding corn, and building houses and fences that claimed up to one-third of their time. This same Gabbar system was applied to South Ethiopia after the expansion of Shewan Kingdom while most of the southern ruling classes were made Balabates (gult holders) until emperor Haile Selassie abolished fiefdom (gultegna), the central institution of feudalism, in the south and north Ethiopia by 1966 after growing domestic pressure for land reform.
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I read through too quickly and didn't want to quote the entire chapter, but I love the emblem you made for the People's Security Service.